105: Jennifer Moore

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About This Episode

Today we are chatting with Illustrator, Jennifer Moore, who wants to find a way to balance her artistry with entrepreneurship. We talk to her about building a structure for her business that will help her to keep motivated, and she explains that the ideal scenario for her would be to achieve a 70-30 split between her repeat retail business and the bespoke projects that she loves. Lots of familiar themes here, including how to maintain focus, leveraging existing clients for referrals, and building those all-important strategies for consistency.

About Our Guest

Jennifer Moore, originally from Worthing and a resident of East Sussex for 35 years, is a devoted naturalist with a deep passion for British birds. Through her art in gouache, oils, and prints from lino and woodcuts, she not only captures the beauty of these birds but also promotes a greater appreciation for biodiversity. Collaborating with various organizations, her Birdwatching Logbooks serve both as an artistic showcase and an effective fundraiser for conservation efforts. Beyond her artistic pursuits, Jennifer's interests span from being an aficionado of typefaces and architecture to cooking, walking her dog, and humorously serving as the "personal assistant" to her demanding black cat, all while confessing to unconventional tastes in music and films. Learn more about Jennifer

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• Transcript

  TAE-105-Jennifer Moore

  ===

  [00:00:00] Jude Schweppe: Hi there. I'm Jude Schweppe.

  [00:00:04] Gabe Ratliff: And I'm Gabe Ratliff.

  [00:00:05] Jude Schweppe: Welcome to the Artful Experience where we have conversations with creative entrepreneurs and business owners, giving them as much support and value as we can pack into 60 minutes.

  [00:00:15] Gabe Ratliff: So tell us what's been keeping you up at night? What's been nagging at you?

  [00:00:20] Jude Schweppe: What challenges are you facing in your business that you could use some outside perspective on?

  [00:00:25] Gabe Ratliff: Maybe you've got an amazing idea. But you're not sure how to bring it to life. We are here to help

  [00:00:31] Jude Schweppe: you bring the topic and we'll bring the ideas.

  [00:00:34] Gabe Ratliff: Our goal is to give you clarity on your chosen topic and some exciting ideas that you can start implementing right away.

  [00:00:45] Jude Schweppe: Today we are chatting with Illustrator, Jennifer Moore, who wants to find a way to balance her artistry with entrepreneurship. We talk to her about building a structure for her business that will help her to keep motivated, and she explains that the ideal scenario for her would be to achieve a 70 30 split between her repeat retail business and the bespoke projects that she loves. Lots of familiar themes here, including how to maintain focus, leveraging existing clients for referrals, and building those all important strategies for consistency. Let's take a listen.

  [00:01:21] Welcome Jennifer. Thank you so much for joining us on the Artful Experience.

  [00:01:25] We're really looking forward to speaking with you.

  [00:01:28] Jennifer Moore: Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm really looking forward to talking to you both.

  [00:01:31] Jude Schweppe: let's just dive straight in and tell us what your topic is for today. What would you like some thoughts, brainstorming and ideation on.

  [00:01:39] Jennifer Moore: Well, I think my main issue at the moment is that I've got although I've been creative involved in art for quite a long time I developed this particular project I'm now working on during lockdown and I've you know, I had to sort of pivot from what I was doing previously to, to working on this.

  [00:02:01] And I'm now in a position where I've had a few other things going on, which have meant I've now, I'm now in a position to be able to solely focus on my, my sort of current business, which is. To do with, I, I basically paint birds and that's the sort of baseline thing. And I create small birdwatching pocketbooks, which are then used that they I sell to retail.

  [00:02:30] But I also work with bespoke projects to use my little booklet. So I make bespoke booklets for a particular project. So I've just finished one up in Greenwich Peninsula, so, which is working with a developer. And I'm very much, much as I love the idea of you know, it's great sort of being creative.

  [00:02:52] Obviously I'm also running a business which I really enjoy and I'm getting used to that because I've never sort of run my own business before, although I've been self-employed. It's always been quite. A sort of organic, oh, well I seem to be doing this now, so I'll do that for a bit. Whereas now I actually want to create a framework, create a structure, and actually move that forward.

  [00:03:15] But it's just me. I'm a sole trader. I have a lot of ideas, and although I do, I don't struggle with motivation, but obviously there are times when certain aspects of my business get a bit flat. And because I'm a bit I'm open to all sorts of, I, I'm very happy, you know, my, my business isn't so set in stone as to what I do.

  [00:03:40] I'm able to say, oh yeah, I can give that a go. And the problem then is that when, like I said, things go a bit flat with some of the sort of things that are, you know, like just the retail business or you know, the, the sort of slightly more boring, frankly, sort of bread and butter stuff. I get a bit seduced by like the idea of new projects and I find it difficult to sort of maintain that kind of grunt with the, with the kind of every day.

  [00:04:11] I don't, I don't, I'm quite happy with, you know, when I get orders coming in, obviously that's fine and I'm, I'm happy to do that, but it's just that because I'm a new business and because I haven't really sort of, I have settled on some things, but I, I need more strings to my bow in order for it to be sufficiently remunerative for me to kind of live on it.

  [00:04:31] And that's what I want to grow. And it's just having this thing of, something sort of bubbles up and I think, oh, that's quite, and so I chase those bubbles and then it may or may not come something, but meanwhile I've got other things and I think, oh, hang on, I'm trying to I don't want to end up spreading myself really thin.

  [00:04:52] I don't wanna get bored of just having to do the same. Sort of everyday stuff. I'm not very good at saying, all right, well Mondays I'm going to do this, and Thursdays I'm gonna do that. 'cause again, being creative, I'm caught up in the moments and I have my sort of bio rhythms and everything like like that.

  [00:05:13] So, I think my main, so really long-winded way, I'd say my, my probably is, it's, it's not that I lack focus. I have a huge amount of focus. If anything, I have too much focus and I, I, I it's more about not quite knowing how to sort of pace myself and, you know, how much sort of should I need to be focusing on one thing And how established does that need to be in order to move on to the next thing?

  [00:05:42] Or is it okay to just say, I've had a fun thing come into my inbox. Let's see where that goes. You know, and it's just trying to juggle those things because when things are going well, then I think, oh, that's working. And when they're not, I think, oh, it isn't. And again, that's a, that's a difficulty of a, being a creative, and b, being a, you know, lone business owner.

  [00:06:05] So there

  [00:06:06] Jude Schweppe: Okay. Okay. So lots of different things kind of bubbling away, and is the support you're looking for. In terms of helping you focus on a couple of things, or managing your time or not getting distracted by the shiny new things,

  [00:06:23] Jennifer Moore: I think it's, it's just it's, it's more about I suppose because I don't have a great deal of experience at running a business. It's how to apply method and structure to something which is. Which is kind of just me and how how disciplined I need to be really. 'cause I'm, I'm not afraid of being disciplined.

  [00:06:46] It's just a, you know, I can't apply discipline to something which is, is, you know, I don't, I don't know what I'm meant to be sort of focusing on. So I suppose it's, it's trying to apply my enthusiasm and my motivation to things which are actually gonna drive my business forward sort of holistically and from a fundamental level, rather than just constantly having that sort of pioneering thing.

  [00:07:12] Also being able to so I think I, my guidance, the guidance or the thing I would be interested in finding out is, is how to sort of make sure I've got my stable base while still en encouraging new things to come in.

  [00:07:29] Jude Schweppe: Sure, and first of all, can I say, I can so relate to this.

  [00:07:34] Jennifer Moore: Okay.

  [00:07:34] Jude Schweppe: This is, this is such a familiar tale to me and I think a lot of creative people will, because that's how our brains function. You know, we get excited by new ideas. We get excited by those kind of bubbly, shiny things that might distract us from, like you say, the everyday grunt work of growing a business.

  [00:07:54] And I think as a creative person, it's very much about balancing the two. So you need to have something that's going to inspire you and stimulate you and make you feel motivated. But then also it's about, Actually getting shit done, getting the stuff done that is going to build the business exponentially.

  [00:08:13] And so that you find yourself in a really solid place in 3, 5, 10 years time, whatever it might be, and, and building in those processes. And it's something I coach people, creative clients around all the time is, is kind of understanding that the, the process is like the scaffolding for your business

  [00:08:32] Jennifer Moore: Exactly. Yeah.

  [00:08:32] Jude Schweppe: do so much of the heavy lifting for you.

  [00:08:35] And then you can layer all of the creativity and the fun stuff on top of that. But if you don't have those processes built in, it tends to be a bit fly by the seat of your pants and, you know, five tabs open at once, 25 tabs open at once if you're me.

  [00:08:51] Jennifer Moore: yeah.

  [00:08:52] Jude Schweppe: so if we just go back to our, our sort of framework, what feels really important about this for you at the moment, Jennifer?

  [00:09:00] Jennifer Moore: I think for me at the moment, I am getting the repeat business up and running and because that is, that is the sort of base baseline, you know, the repeat orders are, are what enables me to even though they may not. As lucrative as doing the sort of bigger one-off bespoke projects.

  [00:09:23] Obviously they take up a lot of my time and they they are a little bit ad hoc and I can't, I can't necessarily I, I don't have anything like the same amount of control over whether or not they're gonna come off and they, they tend to be much longer processes and take a few months to come fruition.

  [00:09:42] Whereas obviously with the, with the sort of sort of retail side of things, I sort of say, oh, you know, do you want to try these? And they say, yeah, okay, I'll get some. And then sort of 30 days later I get paid. And so, it's, I, I think what for me the most important thing at the moment is increasing my, my sort of base And yeah, not, not getting too distracted when things are just naturally a little bit quiet on that front.

  [00:10:12] Not thinking, oh, maybe I should be doing this, you know, instead, or as well as in order, because that's, so, I think it's more about just staying motivated to just stick with the stuff, which is working, but it's Feels a little bit dull.

  [00:10:32] Gabe Ratliff: I have a question for you, Jennifer.

  [00:10:34] Jennifer Moore: Yeah.

  [00:10:36] Gabe Ratliff: If you're, if we're looking at the bespoke projects that what I was hearing is they take longer and there's less control. Would you

  [00:10:44] Jennifer Moore: Yeah,

  [00:10:45] Gabe Ratliff: Okay. And then you've got the retail, which is like the repeat business. And I was hearing a lot more freedom and a lot more, they, they're, they're like, Hey, which, which you're just saying, Hey, which do you want?

  [00:10:57] And they can kind of choose. And, and it's, that to me sounds like a, you know, there's more freedom, there's more control. There's more flow. Is there a percentage that you want of either of either. Or do you want one and not the other eventually? Like what's kind of the goal that you wanna get to?

  [00:11:16] Jennifer Moore: I think I'd like to have probably a sort of 70 30 split of regular stuff coming in. And yeah, the sort of, yeah, regular, I mean, I, I teach as well, so teach art as well. So, that's another sort of regular thing, which again, I enjoy. But yeah, I think it's, yes, I'd like to have sort of 70% with yeah, the sort of repeat business coming in and yeah, 30% of, of kind of bespoke, bespoke things happening. I think realistically that's what I would just sort of judging by the likely take up of the partic, you know, those two sides of things. I think that's a realistic thing for me to be aiming for.

  [00:12:02] Gabe Ratliff: Where is that now? What? What's the percentage now? Just so we have a gauge.

  [00:12:06] Jennifer Moore: It's probably about 90 10 at the moment.

  [00:12:12] Jude Schweppe: Okay. And so where would you like to be? What sort of clarity would you like to have at the end of this session? I.

  [00:12:20] Jennifer Moore: I think I would I'd like to sort of basically just have a bit of reassurance about, you know, if what I'm doing is okay. And yeah, like I said, have a bit of guidance on how to stay motivated to do the you know, the, the sort of regular stuff. 'cause like I said, I actually want that to be the.

  [00:12:40] Priority and the form a larger portion of my business. But that's the thing, which is the sort of humdrum stuff. And although I do get results, it's, you know, it can obviously be a bit demoralizing. Whereas with the bespoke things, it's, that's much more, you know, and so it's getting this balance of being able to still feel motivated about the more rum stuff and not, so, although I want my business to be 70 30 probably with the amount of my enthusiasm, it's probably the opposite way. So, so not that I don't enjoy the sort of regular stuff, but obviously it's, it's kind of pretty much the same old, same old. So like I said, there's a, I, I do find it difficult to not, not sort of jump on. You know, completely different things or think, oh, perhaps I should try that. So that's, that's, and so I think at the end of this, I would like to, yeah, just have some tips on how to, how to stay in control of, you know, that, that sort of commitment to the, to the, to the basics really.

  [00:13:49] Gabe Ratliff: What? What would you really, really, really want? What do you really want? What is like, what would be

  [00:14:00] Jennifer Moore: Well, I think, I think best case scenario is what I've, what I've sort of potentially got at the moment, but it's just, it's, I need a bit. More of it. So a bit more in each sort of camp because you know, it's fine. It's just, it's still very small and my numbers are still quite low of both. And because of my, I don't yet have that much of a track record, I'm not certainly with bespoke stuff, I'm not yet able to sort of command a, a sort of particularly competitive price because I'm so new and what I'm doing doesn't have a great precedent.

  [00:14:36] So it's difficult for me to you know, for people to, for, for me to sort say, well, no, it's gonna cost you that. Do, do you know what I mean? So I would like to I would like to have more of my regular customers and a yeah, sort of more of the bespoke projects and be able to command a higher price for the bespoke projects and, and increase my customer base regarding the.

  [00:15:02] Retail outlets. So that's what I'd like. And I think if I could increase it by a third, what I'm currently doing, that would be, that would be lovely. not, it's not manageable and it's, like I said, my business is, it's 2021, so it's still, you know, and yeah. So I think that's what I'd like to be doing.

  [00:15:26] Jude Schweppe: So essentially what we have now and scaling it.

  [00:15:29] Jennifer Moore: Yes.

  [00:15:30] Jude Schweppe: to scale up in terms of the amount that you're selling at retail, and then start to scale up in terms of the pricing that you can charge for your bespoke stuff. Okay, cool. Shall we dive into your current process? So talk us through what you're doing to sell to retail and how you are getting leads and inquiries and people interested in the bespoke stuff.

  [00:15:50] So if we can paint a picture of that, then I think we can start to unpick it a little bit for you.

  [00:15:54] Jennifer Moore: Yeah. So as far as the retail stuff goes, I so my customer base I, I only work with the uk because I'm only doing about British birds, frankly, so it have that market there. And oh, that's something else I need to talk about, but I'll go onto that later. Right. So at the moment what I do is I basically, I look on social media.

  [00:16:18] I look on certain, not sort of TripAdvisor, do you know, muddy stilettos? They, yeah. So I look on that. I look, yeah, like I said, Instagram I've got quite a because the kind of people I'm selling to, they're quite sort of curated places. They, you know, Instagram and social media is a good place to mine and I email them. And I have a few sort of stock emails that I use to say, you know, this is what I do, would you be interested? These are the terms, you know, let me know if you want a copy to have a look. And I probably get about one in 10 from that. Say Yes. Is converted into an actual sale? Probably three or four, you know, same, I'm not sure.

  [00:17:07] And so, that's what I'm, that's what I'm basically doing. And obviously people do contact me because I'm on social media, I'm on, you know, I've got my website so people contact me having seen the product. So, and that probably I probably get twice a month. I get somebody getting in touch with me saying, can I stop them?

  [00:17:30] So that's, That's fine. And in a way I probably just need to be a bit more disciplined about going through that process. But I do, I do find it quite demoralizing obviously. 'cause you know, the one in 10 could be sort of 30 and then I get three, you know, so just the usual thing of, of sales emails and, and that kind of thing.

  [00:17:53] And as far as the bespoke projects go the one I've just done, they actually contacted me and it all went from there. And I'm now using that to contact other people in a similar vein. I've got a meeting with a Rewilding charity up in Scotland. And again, I got in touch with them 'cause I said, look, I've just done this thing.

  [00:18:19] Would you be interested? And so that was really good. So I was using the one I've just done in London as a, as a springboard for. New bespoke projects. So I haven't really got I, I mean, it's basically the same technique with the bespoke ones in so much as I contact and say this is what I've done, you might be interested, let me know.

  [00:18:41] I've got a page on my website I can direct them to. So that's my, that's my modus operandi.

  [00:18:49] Jude Schweppe: Okay, and do you know where the inbound leads are coming from? So if somebody contacts you on through your website, do you know where they found you or where they've come across you?

  [00:19:00] Jennifer Moore: It's usually on Instagram or they've seen my book somewhere else and they've thought, oh, hang on, we'd like to stop them at our place. So that's, it's, it's usually. It's usually just individuals that have seen them somewhere and then, then contact me because most of the places I'm working with are independent shops or you know, sort of relatively, they might be large businesses, but they don't mind working with an independent, rather because a lot, awful lot of places only want to work with a distributor.

  [00:19:33] And you know, for various reasons I either can't get into a distributor or I, I wouldn't really want to anyway. So, yeah, most of the people I'm working with, they're, they're relatively small businesses or you know, people that kind of very much focus on sort of UK based. So like Dalesford Organic stock is there and you know, people that are very much championing kind of British sustainable But, you know, sort of small scale independent businesses like me.

  [00:20:00] So that's, that's where people are contacting me from.

  [00:20:04] Jude Schweppe: Sure. Okay, so if we were to, oh, sorry. Go ahead, Gabe.

  [00:20:08] Gabe Ratliff: Thanks. Jennifer, do you have a, a methodology around or a process around existing clients or customers where you're kind of checking in with them and like asking them for referrals or if they know anybody that could

  [00:20:24] Jennifer Moore: I haven't asked them for referrals, actually. I do. I check in with them. And I've, I've sort of, Moved a bit 'cause of speaking to various people and reading various things. I've, I've moved away from the sort of, do you need more stock to kind of, Hey, so you know, you've had a great weekend, lovely weather.

  [00:20:42] How are your sales going? Or we're coming at half term. Might you want some more? So I've, I've, I've really consciously tried to move from a sort of trying to get sales to trying to be the sort of problem solver, you know, this might work for you. And trying to be a little bit more helpful with people.

  [00:20:58] Although I am astonished at some of the sort of ineffectiveness of people's sales techniques is sometimes a bit depressing, you know, actually the, you know, in the venues. So that, that gets me down a bit sometimes, but, you know, but no, I've not ever asked for anyone for referrals. I suppose I'd be worried that there'd be, like worried about competition or something.

  [00:21:22] But is that not a, is that not something I should worry about?

  [00:21:29] Gabe Ratliff: Help me understand that question again.

  [00:21:32] Jennifer Moore: Well, you said, do I ask for referrals? And I, I don't think I have because people, if anything, want exclusivity with the, with the product in, you know, where they're

  [00:21:46] Gabe Ratliff: Okay. Okay.

  [00:21:47] Jennifer Moore: selling it. But I guess

  [00:21:49] Gabe Ratliff: Well, I mean, it's just like, you know, if you think about crisps, right? You can get crisps at all kinds of stores

  [00:21:59] Jennifer Moore: sure.

  [00:22:00] Gabe Ratliff: and if, if, and, and we're all in this together, right? You know, some people I'm, I'm a real kind of, You know, I, I come from a different kind of methodology around business and like capitalism and all that stuff, and like how we're, how Jude and I show up is very much like, we're all in this together.

  [00:22:22] Let's lift each other up. And there are, you know, and, and, and that's the thing. If, if you are a pub or if you are you know, a pizza shop or something, all your other brothers and sisters who are also pizza shop owners, you're all, you're all trying to keep, stay in this together, you know? And just like, how we're supporting other creative entrepreneurs and business owners, we, we are also helping people.

  [00:22:49] And, you know, a lot of people that we coach are coaches, so we're also helping lift up other coaches. And, but we are co you know, there's this supportiveness, you know, and so I can un, I can totally understand that concept of like, well, but they, I. They wouldn't wanna help anybody else, but there's also some people who are like, absolutely, I think so-and-so should have this because I don't support that area.

  [00:23:12] Or, I'm not in that country, or I'm not in that city, or township or whatnot. So

  [00:23:18] Jennifer Moore: Yeah, that's a really

  [00:23:18] Gabe Ratliff: of an assumption,

  [00:23:19] Jennifer Moore: never thought of that. Yeah. Okay. No, that's a really good idea. And actually I've just thought, I've just, I've just got a stock is who's on a canal boat, bookshop, you know, a floating bookshop and I wonder, I guess that's quite a sort of niche community. And if they do well for them, they might well be happy to refer me to other you know, sort of barge bookshops and canal boat bookshops.

  [00:23:45] And I guess that's something that even if even if I contacted them, if I could say, you know, I was speaking to so and so and they suggested I contacted you that would definitely add Some legitimacy and authenticity to what I was doing. So, no, thanks. That's a really good idea. I hadn't thought of that.

  [00:24:07] Jude Schweppe: if, if we were gonna do like an audit on all of the things that you feel are working really well at the moment, what, where would you start? What's on what's on top? And let's work our way down then.

  [00:24:18] Jennifer Moore: I think what's, what's working well? Yes, I, the, I think the emails I send out are good because I do get a good response and I, I think I've, I, I'm, I'm happy with that. I probably just need to do more of it and be a bit more disciplined about it. And I. I think my, you know, my website's okay because it's, it's nothing particularly, I mean, I did it myself.

  [00:24:50] It's nothing particularly fancy, but on the other hand, it does seem to do the trick. So, I think my website's serving its purpose, I think my the, the sort of broaching people about the bespoke projects is although that's not a problem I do have, I think I have some confidence issues myself just because I'm very aware that I've done one and that just happened to sort of be something which was quite You know, they, they were quite helpful to me 'cause I said, look, I've never done this before.

  [00:25:25] And, and they were kind of, that was fine. But I haven't so I think that's more of a sort of confidence thing about trying to sound bigger than I am and not being a particularly good at the sort of puffer fish thing. And so I think that's, that does need a bit of work because I haven't got any reason to be unconfident because it all worked seamlessly and they were really, really happy.

  [00:25:52] And so, but I think it's just, I'm very conscious that I've done one and if I was looking at something, I might want more than one. But that's, as I said, is, that's a sort of confidence thing on my part. I don't think it's quite so much that I'm not, it's not effective. I think that, like I said, that's just a confidence thing on my part.

  [00:26:13] Jude Schweppe: So I'm, I'm curious to know why you feel you need to be bigger than you are. Is that connected to the confidence thing, or do you think that these particular clients are gonna be looking for somebody who has way more experience? Or does it come down to the fact that you have beautiful work that you know is gonna do the job for them?

  [00:26:33] Jennifer Moore: Yeah, I think it is, it is just a confidence thing because everybody's, everybody loved it. What I've done and everybody does, you know, really like them. So I guess yeah, it is just a, it is just a confidence thing on, on my part.

  [00:26:50] Jude Schweppe: Okay. So what would make it easier for you? What would make this whole process of reaching out to potential bespoke clients easier, less stressful, and simpler for you? Because Gabe and I are all about radical simplification. What is the most simple way of doing this thing that's gonna lead to the results that we want?

  [00:27:10] Jennifer Moore: Yeah, I think yeah, I, it, it is I think it's just about whole having that commitment to bringing myself kind of back to sort of the, the things that are going well and actually are working, but they just are, you know, they're just naturally, everything takes a bit of time and I'm not gonna have stuff sort of piling in from all quarters every day of the week.

  [00:27:35] And to Yeah, I, I think it's, I think it's a question of having some regular input. And, you know, and this is why I've considered things like coaching, because it's having that third party, just somebody to say, oh, and how have you done with this? And I think, oh, shit, I haven't forgot to do that.

  [00:27:54] And and, and I think that's probably, that would be really useful for me because it is, like I said, I, it's I have got lots of motivation. It's just directing it and, and staying consistent and, and seeing those results. And I think it's the consistency that I'm, I'm probably struggling with, or, or rather I don't even notice that I'm not being consistent, which is I think the biggest problem.

  [00:28:18] Which is again, something that Maybe some third party help would be, would be useful because it is, like I said, I don't even notice I'm drifting. I just suddenly realize I've, I'm putting a whole load of energy into something else just because other stuff's a bit quiet and it's, you know, it seems like the perfectly logical thing to do.

  [00:28:36] But it, it sort of, obviously I am taking my foot off the gas and, and this sort of thing. So, yeah, I think, I think probably having some checks to keep myself on track because I don't even mind doing the sort of boring stuff, so to speak, because it, it, you know, I feel I'm growing my business and I get, but it is just, I don't even notice when I'm drifting and I then sort of think, oh, I, I really have gone quite a long way.

  [00:29:06] So yeah, I think it's the consistency.

  [00:29:10] Jude Schweppe: Okay. And it honestly, this is something that comes up with every single creative client, you know, that we see and that I've worked with over the last six years and myself. It's really hard to be consistent. It's

  [00:29:21] Jennifer Moore: and like I said, it's, I don't even notice, I don't even notice that I'm, I'm sort of, I've picked up something else and I'm getting quite feeling quite energized about that. And, you know, it's, it is difficult when 'cause I don't sort of drop everything else. It's just, it is like, oh, that's a bit quiet, so, oh, well I may as well have a look at something else.

  [00:29:40] And it is difficult when things are just naturally 'cause you know, it's, it's half term or, you know, the sun's come out or you know, it's, we've had the coronation or something like that. And things sort of get a bit like, oh, well nobody's really around or you are waiting to hear on things. And, you know, I, I'm in a, you know, I get in these situations where I've, I've done a lot of kind of out and there's a lot of things out there and I'm, I'm sort of. Just kind of waiting for things to happen and nothing is, and I I, I guess that's, that's my sort of weak spot and that's when I start thinking, oh, well, ooh, well there's something over there I could stick my finger in and, you know,

  [00:30:20] Jude Schweppe: Yeah, let's, let's go and stir this shiny thing over here. And I think, you know, consistency is a muscle. It's absolutely a muscle and it's one of the most important muscles that we have to build. But also learning how to build it individually for ourselves, because it's gonna be different for everybody.

  [00:30:37] And it's, you know, consistency is the seed. You know, you plant it now and you might not see any return for 2, 3, 4, 5 years. And that's one of the really hard things, particularly when you are someone who's like, I need that little dopamine hit of this is working and, you know, I'm getting the lovely feedback from the clients.

  [00:30:57] Or, you know, the sales are going really well. So it's, it's learning how to manage those in between periods. When you're not getting the little dopamine fisk of success. And how do you build that into your everyday routine? And if you don't have someone to be, you know, held accountable to, as in you're not working necessarily with a coach, then how are you being accountable to yourself?

  [00:31:20] Jennifer Moore: Yeah.

  [00:31:20] Jude Schweppe: I wanna just ci circle back. I love that expression. Circle back to if you were to do a review. 'cause you've, you've talked about just having done one bespoke project and I'm sensing a little bit of lack of confidence around it. A little bit of imposter syndrome maybe. Yeah. Who, who am I to? Who am I to go chasing all these lovely bespoke projects when I've only actually done one?

  [00:31:46] But if you were to review that project, if you were somebody, if you were your best friend, reviewing how that whole thing went, talk to me about the process and the work and the result and how the client felt.

  [00:31:59] Jennifer Moore: Yeah, I mean, it was, it was really good. And I was, I was absolutely bang on time with everything. In fact, I was 10 days early with getting the final product to them. There weren't any hitches, nothing fell in puddles, which was a recurring nightmare for me. Yeah. Always a problem when you work with paper-based projects, you know?

  [00:32:20] And yes, I chased things when they needed chasing. I really, I was really communicative. You know, they all said, it's been an absolute pleasure to work with you on this and everybody I mean, the, the product was absolutely spot on. My printers did a great job. My proofreaders did a great job. And so I, and I, I kept the client, you know, involved at every step and I kept them updated and I yeah, I think I did, I did really well and I wasn't particularly fazed or I, I didn't allow myself to be particularly phased by the sort of little fish big pond thing.

  [00:33:08] And

  [00:33:09] Gabe Ratliff: Can I ask what didn't go well in your mind?

  [00:33:14] Jennifer Moore: well, I was actually a little bit disappointed in their representation of you know, once the product was out, I was a bit disappointed in their representation of it on their social media, their. Stuff. And, and unfortunately they, I don't feel they've been terribly communicative with me, but I sort of think, well that's, you know, as far as they're concerned, they've got their products and I probably need to be a bit more upfront with saying, can you let me know when you're gonna be doing press releases or something, rather than me just finding out about it, just 'cause I happen to go on the website kind of thing.

  [00:33:46] And they made a few mistakes their end with, with the copy and stuff, but I, you know, I sort of, corrected that and that was all fine. So as far as what, as far as my side went, there wasn't anything that went wrong and I was really pleased with it. And I think, you know, even considering it was the first time, and I did, I did sort of deliberately use it as a bit of a learning curve and to be able to say, right, okay, well I've charged this, how long does it actually take me?

  [00:34:17] And oh yes, I should have sort of, Thought a little bit ahead with that and maybe, you know, sort of gone about that in a slightly different way, which would've been quicker or, do you know what I mean? And so I I, I really valued it as a learning experience for me. And yeah, I, there there wasn't anything that went awry and everything, like I said, went, went really smoothly and they, they've all been really pleased.

  [00:34:46] And I think everybody from the people I was directly working with as well, with, as well as the sort of, you know, sort of main client who's, you know, miles bigger than the people I was working with that I, I met them and they said, oh yeah, it's fantastic. We really like it. It's really great. So, there wasn't anything that went wrong.

  [00:35:07] Jude Schweppe: So this doesn't sound to me like somebody who's not ready for her next big commission

  [00:35:13] Gabe Ratliff: That's what I heard.

  [00:35:15] Jude Schweppe: to start working with some dream clients delivering beautiful work. You are ready. What

  [00:35:20] Jennifer Moore: Okay. Thank you. Well, it's, it,

  [00:35:23] Jude Schweppe: do, what do you think? What do you think? Do you agree?

  [00:35:26] Jennifer Moore: yeah, I do agree. And I'm really excited to do the next one and

  [00:35:31] Gabe Ratliff: Can I ask you a question about that?

  [00:35:33] Jennifer Moore: sure.

  [00:35:35] Gabe Ratliff: Do you, do you have a vision of your dream client now that you've worked with this one and that I heard a few things on their end.

  [00:35:45] Jennifer Moore: Yeah.

  [00:35:45] Gabe Ratliff: That could improve. So what that immediately brought up for me is I would really love to know, like, do you, do you have a vision for, oh, who would be even better?

  [00:35:53] Like, who would I love to work with?

  [00:35:55] Jennifer Moore: Yeah, I, I think I, yeah, I would like to work with another, I, I think I do know my dream client and I, I think it would be great to work with another developer because that was, that was just kind of, I really liked that sort of innovation and the fact that I was working with somebody who is kind of has, you know, seen as quite a, you know, very destructive force and it was really good to be doing something so positive.

  [00:36:21] So I did really enjoy that. And also just the reach of it and the, the, the fact that I, you know, and obviously I did get a bit of a kick about out of being a tiny, tiny person going up against this big, you know, sort of, corporation. And, and that I, I sort of, I did it. And so that was really good.

  [00:36:40] So I, I do have a dream client and I think it was really nice to work with people where I. Not exactly money was no object, but it wasn't sort of, we didn't have to kind of really scrimp and save and you know, just sort of, oh, can you, can you shave a bit off that and can you, so that, that was really lovely and it was lovely to have that for my first bespoke project to, to be able to have that kind of validation I suppose.

  [00:37:06] And so, yeah, I think I do have an idea of my dream client now and I would probably be a little bit more careful rather than saying, oh, they've got a great PR department, they don't need me to sort of check in the thing. I'll probably be a bit more, sorry, could I just have a quick, quick check of the photo you're gonna use before you, before you post that?

  [00:37:26] So yeah, and so there's definitely things like that I would, I would probably be a little bit more careful about.

  [00:37:32] Jude Schweppe: So what would your dream process look like, Jennifer, from start to finish? From the initial inquiry or the initial outreach right through to communication of the work I.

  [00:37:44] Jennifer Moore: I think I, I feel like I'm doing it already, is just yeah, I, I, I think I, I, yeah, I, I don't think I'd want to do anything different. And I, I, I'm sure I can deliver it because I'm I have, and

  [00:38:07] Jude Schweppe: You have?

  [00:38:08] Jennifer Moore: yes. So, that was, yeah, I, I don't think, I don't feel there are any kind of particular in what I'm doing.

  [00:38:17] Like I said, it's, it's just, I, I feel I suppose I, I just feel a bit vulnerable sort of pitching everything on this one thing. Even though actually the one thing is kind of pretty representative of what I do. It's okay. It's only one thing, but there's no reason why I can't repeat it again, again because it's, it's kind of what I do.

  [00:38:34] So I guess I hadn't really thought of that, but now you mention it, that that is, although it is only one, it is one, but it's thoroughly representative, so it doesn't really matter that it's only one.

  [00:38:48] Jude Schweppe: Yeah. And how much do you enjoy this aspect of the work?

  [00:38:56] Jennifer Moore: Yeah, I really enjoy it. Yeah. I really enjoy it and I, I really enjoy the I do really enjoy the sort of retail as well. It's just obviously that's You know, that's, that's kind of not quite as adrenaline fueled. And you know, it's, it's great when I get a somebody really loves them and I get that sort of sense of, sense of achievement from that.

  [00:39:18] So it's, it's not that I sort of only enjoy the big stuff. I do really enjoy somebody saying, yes, I'll give them a go. And actually in a way that the sort of small little independent shops, that's also really gratifying. 'cause I think, well their, they, their space is really limited. So if they're gonna give it to my books, then they must be, they must be, you know, have trusting them.

  [00:39:37] And I offer sale a return and the majority of people say, no, it's fine. Send an invoice, which again, is, is really nice. So yeah, I think there's nothing about the process which I don't enjoy. I think it's, it's just Probably needs to be, yeah, a bit bit more of it, which needs to come from me.

  [00:39:59] Jude Schweppe: So would it be right to say that at this stage it's a numbers game in the sense that it's a numbers game with regards to the pe, the number of people that you're reaching out to, the number of people that you're pitching the bespoke work to. And it's just about a percentage of a percentage of those are gonna convert a percentage of the mark going to.

  [00:40:19] Jennifer Moore: Yeah.

  [00:40:20] Jude Schweppe: So I have a thought and you can say, yay, Renee, this doesn't work for me at the moment. Would it be possible for you to outsource some of that work? So would it be possible for you to take a template of an email and maybe get a VA or somebody to support you in actually compiling a very, very large list of the people that you need to be contacting and maybe them doing one part of it?

  [00:40:45] Or is it simply, I can do this all myself, I just need to sit down and get it done and get and build in a process?

  [00:40:52] Jennifer Moore: yeah, I think I need to be, I think I just need to be more disciplined. I don't, I don't feel I, I don't, I don't feel at the moment I would, I, I think at the moment, if I were to get somebody else to, I would feel quite sort of lazy because,

  [00:41:09] Jude Schweppe: Okay.

  [00:41:10] Jennifer Moore: don't worry. I would then worry that that would just then free up time for me to go and do things, which I probably shouldn't be focusing on.

  [00:41:17] And I do, I do just need to have the discipline. And I think, I mean, it's just, just really, really helpful talking to you both because even just, just talking about this, it just makes me, oh God, I just need to do it. I just need to do it. And it's, it's so, I think yeah, I, like I said, there's, there's nothing stopping me apart from just me, me sort of getting a bit distracted.

  [00:41:40] I'm, I'm, I'm wandering off, but it's

  [00:41:43] Jude Schweppe: of tea,

  [00:41:45] Jennifer Moore: yeah, that's right.

  [00:41:46] Jude Schweppe: what's in the fridge.

  [00:41:46] Jennifer Moore: said, yeah, exactly. It's, and it's not even as if that I don't enjoy it because I do, I mean, like I said, it, it's, it's a bit tedious, but it's not, it's not kind of, unworkable. So, and yes, I, I think I, I, I also feel I could do with.

  [00:42:04] A bit more access to kind of networking and people outside sort of me and you know, my kids and my family to get ideas as to, because I'm the only person I know who's, who's sort of running their own business and doing this thing. So, yeah, I think definitely sort of networking, you know, just Gabe, when you were saying about referrals, you know, it's brilliant.

  [00:42:30] It's a really good idea and I think I just probably need to reach out to other people for just to, to remind myself that I'm running a business. I'm not just sitting here doing my own little my own little kind of thing here on my own. And, and I, I think that would be really useful as well.

  [00:42:51] Jude Schweppe: Hmm. It's almost like giving yourself permission to identify as a business owner. And I think that's something that a lot of creative people struggle with. You know, it's like, oh, I'm not, I don't do business. I'm not a business owner, but in fact we are. You know, and it's, it's sort of, I. Bringing all of that skillset together and remembering that this is something that we want to be doing in 5, 10, 15 years.

  [00:43:14] And to see it grow and to see it scale. And that's the exciting part, but it's reconciling those two very different parts of ourselves and trying to get them to work together. You know, that's when we start to see the growth, growth. So could we put some actions around this? Could we start to look at some actions?

  [00:43:34] What's gonna be a really good process for you? Do you like to use software? Do you like to schedule things? Do you like to write things down? So what are the sort of, if we're gonna look at the rinse and repeat actions that you're gonna commit to every week or every two weeks, whatever feels like a good interval for you, what would those things be?

  [00:43:53] Jennifer Moore: I think it's definitely just. Mining and an email list. And you know, I think I, I need to find a, a process by which I can isolate contacts. And I think I probably need to be just because things obviously crop up and I think, oh, I must contact them. But I think I'd probably need to commit to a, a, a more sort of strategic way of actually saying, no, I've, I've got to do X number each.

  [00:44:21] Yeah, every two weeks is probably a good idea just to, you know, sort of coordinate my sort of fluctuating enthusiasm. And I think if I were to just I'd probably, and what I'd probably need to do is come up with a way of whether it's better to find people, email them, send it off, find people, email them, or whether I do finding people. People, or do you know what I mean? So I need to come up with a process is the, the best way for me to do, or whether I, I mix and match just to keep, you know, keep myself feeling sort of stimulated by sometimes doing it one way and then maybe sort of swapping between a couple of different ways to just, so I don't feel like, oh, here we go again.

  [00:45:01] Same old, same old. So that would probably work. But I think that's that's all it's, it's, it is just getting some consistency. And I have, I have tried. But yeah, I, I do really struggle with that sort of discipline of I, I probably need to come up with a way of framing it so it doesn't feel like, oh, but I've got to do my chores.

  [00:45:30] Gabe Ratliff: Can I share an, an invitation and then I have a, a quick exercise if it's okay.

  [00:45:36] Jennifer Moore: Yeah.

  [00:45:36] Gabe Ratliff: So, 'cause I'm hearing that and something that Jude and I really advocate for is quality over quantity. I'm

  [00:45:45] Jennifer Moore: Okay. Yeah,

  [00:45:46] Gabe Ratliff: gonna say that one more time. We are big advocates for quality over quantity.

  [00:45:54] Jennifer Moore: yeah.

  [00:45:54] Gabe Ratliff: Something that we see all over the place is this excess, you know, people with a million followers or a million subscribers and like this and that, and I've got my, you know, 5,000 email subs and all that shit, right? It, that's not gonna get you where you wanna go. And I think that's, at least that's what I, I know that doesn't get me where I want to go. And so what I want to invite you to look at is how can you do this in a fun and effortless way? Because I, you were just saying it, you were just saying mining an email list, isolating contacts, commit to X number of outreach every two weeks.

  [00:46:38] Find people, email them, send it off. But it doesn't have to be, 50 people a week or you know, some stupid number. It could be a few people

  [00:46:53] Jennifer Moore: Yeah,

  [00:46:53] Gabe Ratliff: that you really look for, right? That you really research like that you think about who are my dream client. You just nailed, you just knocked out your dream client, right?

  [00:47:03] You said this is what you, I'll, I'll, I'll repeat it back really quickly. You said you another developer that's in innovation, seen as this destructive force being positive. You love being a tiny person, the underdog going up against this big corporation, the golia, David and Goliath. Right. You, you love, you really liked working with someone that had the disposable income for the project to do it correctly.

  [00:47:24] So there you go. So it's just like, who fills that? And then start a conversation, you know, and it's like how many, as Jude said, it's a numbers game. So what I wanted to to do as far as an exercise is let's, let's put something to that. Let's actually leave you with a number if you want to do 70 30. If you're trying to get to 70 30, how many bespoke projects, how many people do you want to reach out to for the bespoke projects?

  [00:47:50] Like

  [00:47:51] Jennifer Moore: well, I

  [00:47:52] Gabe Ratliff: would be a number to reach out?

  [00:47:54] Jennifer Moore: Yeah, I mean it's probably, I mean, if I could get maybe. Six a year. That would be, that would be nice.

  [00:48:03] Gabe Ratliff: Okay.

  [00:48:04] Jennifer Moore: So,

  [00:48:05] Gabe Ratliff: retail.

  [00:48:07] Jennifer Moore: I probably would need about 200 and I've got about 80 at the moment.

  [00:48:16] Gabe Ratliff: Okay. Hey, that's not bad. That's almost doubling. If you think about that ratio, like once we start to get numbers in there, right? You're at 80 and you need 200. So that's just doubling what you've got almost.

  [00:48:29] Jennifer Moore: yeah,

  [00:48:29] Gabe Ratliff: And you know, that's an exponential thing. As soon as you start to get to where you're trying to get to, all of a sudden you, you're getting even more than you expected and you're like, wait a second, abundance, what's up?

  [00:48:40] Right? And so if you're only looking for six bespoke projects a year, okay, well that's at least one a quarter.

  [00:48:47] Jennifer Moore: yeah,

  [00:48:49] Gabe Ratliff: And does that feel good? At least one a quarter.

  [00:48:52] Jennifer Moore: yeah.

  [00:48:53] Gabe Ratliff: Cool. And that doesn't have to be 50, you know? And that's the thing like that we're constantly talking to people about if you're doing, like, whether we're working with coaches who you don't want a lot of clients.

  [00:49:04] And it's the same with creative work. I, I have a, I have a client who is kind of in a similar space with like a real kind of a niche thing, but he's like this like, Just like Multihyphenate that does all kinds of things. And so I, I get the wrangling too. Jude and I have very similar individual coaching

  [00:49:23] Jennifer Moore: yeah,

  [00:49:24] Gabe Ratliff: And and it's kind of the same thing, you know, like you, you, it's just like, Hey, how many do you need? What do you really need? What is enough? Like, what is enough? And so I just, I wanted to kind of like put those numbers there. 'cause then you can start to go, well, how many bespoke people do I wanna reach out to every two weeks?

  [00:49:41] Jennifer Moore: yeah. No, that's, that's a really, and when you put it like that, then all of a sudden it's, it's not I think the trouble is, I don't, rather than viewing it as, I, I want the client, so in order for that, I need to have done this, I, you know, this many emails in order to get the one client rather than focusing on the client and focus on the number of, and then hope that it gets a client.

  [00:50:06] Do you know what I mean? I think I need to reverse that and say, right, okay, my client is there. I just need to find them in amongst these thing emails that I'm sending off from one of them will, will be them. And I think if I framed it like that, rather than I've got to do 10 emails in order to find one client then I'm focusing on the right, okay, I've got to do my emails.

  [00:50:31] I need to look at it as, no, the client's out there, I just need to sift through, you know, some people in order to reach them.

  [00:50:40] Jude Schweppe: Hmm. And also, you know, think about how you can make it as easy as possible for the client to find you while again, not kind of scattering yourself across every single social media platform. So if you think about where do your ideal clients hang out, like where are they likely to be doing the finger scroll that they come across some of your work and think, oh my goodness, that would be amazing.

  [00:51:01] Again, being really focused and targeted because you've got a family, you know, you've got other things that you do, you've got a life. So with the best will in the world, we can't spend eight hours a day sat in front of social media. So how do you wanna get really intentional with it?

  [00:51:16] Jennifer Moore: yeah. That's a good idea.

  [00:51:18] Jude Schweppe: and what else, you know, could you do to your website to make sure that people are finding you that way?

  [00:51:23] Jennifer Moore: Yeah,

  [00:51:24] Jude Schweppe: So it's about, it's about, you know, putting all these connecting points in place so that people have the opportunity to find you as well as you doing the outreach.

  [00:51:33] Jennifer Moore: No, that's a.

  [00:51:35] Jude Schweppe: So what, what would you like your week to look like if we were to look at your ideal week? Do you have sort of peaks and troughs in terms of your energy?

  [00:51:43] Is Monday not a great day for you? Are you really productive on Wednesdays?

  [00:51:48] Jennifer Moore: Yeah, I think I, I'm quite busy. I mean, Tuesday I'm off sort of doing other, other stuff, teaching and things. So, yeah, I mean, I, I quite like working, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and having a sort of front heavy week. I'm definitely a morning person, so I'm quite happy. I do quite a lot of work while I have my cup of tea first thing, so I usually get quite a lot done by eight o'clock.

  [00:52:14] And but I've, I've definitely kind of had enough by mid-afternoon. So yeah, I think and I, I would like to do more sort of meeting other business owner things. I think that would be really, Important in order to make me feel a bit more yeah, connected

  [00:52:30] Jude Schweppe: Mm.

  [00:52:31] Jennifer Moore: sort of like I'm actually running a business, like I said, because it's difficult to remind myself that when I'm, I'm kind of not around, not in that sort of environment naturally.

  [00:52:43] So I think that would be really, really useful. Sorry, my dog. So yeah, I think, I think yeah, it's, it is, it is just a question of, of doing it really. Yeah.

  [00:52:57] Jude Schweppe: Hmm. But put putting a process in place that doesn't feel tedious and painful in the extreme. And, and sort of finding that balance between, well, this isn't exactly fun, but it's gotta be done, you know?

  [00:53:12] Jennifer Moore: No, but that's really useful. It's really useful to just talk it through with you both and No, I've really, It's been really really interesting to do that. 'cause I've, I've never, you know, I've sort of spoken to other people, but I've never spoken to anybody actually, you know, in, in this context about the business.

  [00:53:31] So it's been really, really helpful.

  [00:53:34] Jude Schweppe: So what action are you going to commit to for the next, next two weeks?

  [00:53:40] Jennifer Moore: The next two weeks I'm definitely going to get back on my findings for new stockists. And I've got like I said, I've got a, a bespoke one potentially, well, I've got a sort of introductory call with them at the start of June. So, for the next couple of weeks I'll probably just focus on my, my getting some more stockists and yeah, just kind of gathering all the information that I've, and, and all the sort of resources that I've had from this London one in order to make sure that's all I.

  [00:54:11] Ready and sort of curated for when I do the next, you know, potentially the next bespoke project and yeah, just make some inquiries from, for some more bespoke projects.

  [00:54:26] Jude Schweppe: Amazing.

  [00:54:26] Gabe Ratliff: are you gonna put that. 'cause that's a case study, right? Your bespoke project. Are you gonna put that on the website so that

  [00:54:34] Jennifer Moore: I am. Yeah. Yeah. I've got so, 'cause I've, I did various blog posts just sort of during the process, so I've got all them on a, on a tab. So I, yeah, I just make that, make sure that's all up to speed and, and looking good. So yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that's kind of a, a nice, nice thing to be focusing on.

  [00:54:55] Jude Schweppe: Awesome. Could I just ask you, Jennifer, what is one key insight you're taking away from this one key thought or insight?

  [00:55:05] Jennifer Moore: Well, there's actually a few but I think you both taken me seriously. Has, has been really lovely and just kind of saying stuff back to me has been, you know, the, the stuff that I've been saying and you saying it back to me, I think, oh gosh, yeah. I, I don't, it doesn't sound like that when, when I say it. And that's the same thing, but no, it's even though you're repeating back what I've said, it sounds very different when, when you say it. So I think, I think if I had to one sort of process that's been really helpful for me. I mean, like I said, you've, you've both said some really, really great things and I, I'm really appreciative for your you, your sort of yeah, your insight.

  [00:55:49] And I, and I really appreciate that. But I think for me, the, the sort of the, it's been really helpful to hear somebody saying back, because yeah, somehow it doesn't, it sounds different when you say,

  [00:56:03] Jude Schweppe: So we'll just, we'll just repeat what we said earlier. You're ready.

  [00:56:07] Jennifer Moore: yeah.

  [00:56:07] Jude Schweppe: You're ready For those big bespoke clients, you've got a brilliant case study. You've got your process worked out. You know who your dream clients are.

  [00:56:15] Jennifer Moore: Yeah.

  [00:56:16] Jude Schweppe: Just ready to go for it. And we

  [00:56:18] Jennifer Moore: I'm, thank you very

  [00:56:19] Jude Schweppe: are rooting for you. We are rooting for you.

  [00:56:22] Jennifer Moore: Thank you.

  [00:56:23] Jude Schweppe: Yay. You're so welcome, Jennifer.

  [00:56:26] Thank you so much for reaching out and for taking the time to chat with us and we would love

  [00:56:31] Jennifer Moore: Yeah, that's fantastic. I've, I've really enjoyed it and it's been really helpful. Thank you.

  [00:56:35] Jude Schweppe: And that brings us to the end of another episode of The Artful Experience,

  [00:56:45] Gabe Ratliff: whether you're a first time listener or a diehard fan. We want to thank you for being here.

  [00:56:50] Jude Schweppe: We hope you enjoyed today's show and got loads of value from the conversation.

  [00:56:55] Gabe Ratliff: And hey, if you're itching for more, don't worry. You can find all the juicy links in show notes for this episode at theartful.co.

  [00:57:02] Jude Schweppe: But before you go, we have a little favor to ask If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcast fix. And do tune in for our next episode.

  [00:57:15] Gabe Ratliff: Your support means the world to us, and it helps us reach even more amazing artful entrepreneurs out there like you.

  [00:57:22] Jude Schweppe: Thanks again for joining us. We appreciate every single one of you.

  [00:57:26] Gabe Ratliff: Until next time, keep unleashing your creative genius and stay artful.