104: Abby Havermann

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About This Episode

Today we're speaking with Abby Haverman, an expert in helping high-achieving women break free from burnout and unworthiness. We uncover Abby's mission to empower women in their early fifties whose external rockstar personas hide their internal struggles. We discuss the flawed concept of boundaries, rebranding, and finding the right words to connect with those who need her help. Stay tuned for an eye-opening conversation on inner peace and personal transformation.

About Our Guest

Abby Havermann is a former psychotherapist and financial advisor, Abby Havermann is a skilled coach, dynamic TEDx speaker, and illuminator of the unconscious self-betrayals plaguing today’s women. She brings high-achieving, insight-oriented people from Hot Mess Express to Awakened Aligned Action... Get to know Abby better

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• Transcript

  TAE-104-Abby Havermann

  ===

  [00:00:00] Jude Schweppe: Hi there. I'm Jude Schweppe.

  [00:00:04] Gabe Ratliff: And I'm Gabe Ratliff.

  [00:00:05] Jude Schweppe: Welcome to the Artful Experience where we have conversations with creative entrepreneurs and business owners, giving them as much support and value as we can pack into 60 minutes.

  [00:00:15] Gabe Ratliff: So tell us what's been keeping you up at night? What's been nagging at you?

  [00:00:20] Jude Schweppe: What challenges are you facing in your business that you could use some outside perspective on?

  [00:00:25] Gabe Ratliff: Maybe you've got an amazing idea. But you're not sure how to bring it to life. We are here to help

  [00:00:31] Jude Schweppe: you bring the topic and we'll bring the ideas.

  [00:00:34] Gabe Ratliff: Our goal is to give you clarity on your chosen topic and some exciting ideas that you can start implementing right away.

  [00:00:45] Today we're speaking with Abby Haberman, an expert in helping high achieving women break free from burnout and unworthiness. We uncover Abby's mission to empower women in their early fifties whose external rockstar personas hide their internal struggles. We discuss the flawed concept of boundaries, rebranding and finding the right words to connect with those who need her help. Stay tuned for an eye-opening conversation on inner peace and personal transformation. Let's dive in.

  [00:01:18] Abby, thank you so much for being here with us on the Artful Experience. We're so excited to have you here.

  [00:01:24] Abby Havermann: Oh, thanks. I'm excited to be here. What a cool idea for a show. I, I love it.

  [00:01:28] Gabe Ratliff: Thanks. Yeah. We feel like this is such a great way to show up and to support our, you know, colleagues and, and, uh, other fellow business owners, uh, creative or not. And, um, and so we just felt like this was such a great way to show up and support, um, and to also show how we work. So, um, we basically are just gonna dive into, um, you know, what's the topic that you wanna focus on.

  [00:01:54] Abby Havermann: So I think my topic is going to be, uh, messaging so that I reach my ideal client, the people that I really, really love to work with.

  [00:02:08] Gabe Ratliff: Okay. And what's important about this.

  [00:02:13] Abby Havermann: Um, well, I mean, I, I think a lot of things is important about it to me. I mean, one is just, um, I get really lit up when, when I'm working with the people that, you know, I just, I, I, I'm inspired by, you know, um, it makes everything, there's just an ease and a flow and it's, it's important in terms of drawing, you know, uh, those people to me as opposed to, you know, a wider array of people that I could work with.

  [00:02:49] Um, but isn't necessarily what, you know, really, you know, isn't, doesn't pinpoint exactly where I wanna be. And it's also important, I think, to just get my, my messaging down more. You know, like I have it in my head. I know who that person is in my head and I know what I'm doing in my head, but I have not come up with how to articulate that.

  [00:03:13] And I think, um, part of that is You know, I know often what is going to be the solution to what someone is managing in their lives. I know that, but that's the solution. If they understood the solution, they wouldn't be looking for anyone. Right? Like so, so putting the words on what it is, they're, that will draw them and be like, wait a minute, oh, that's the person that can help me. Um, that's the person I wanna connect with. So it's important from a couple different angles. So,

  [00:03:53] Gabe Ratliff: Yeah. One of my, one of my buddies, Matt Essem, uh, who's also from, uh, or is in the uk, he's actually from the uk. Um, And, uh, he helped me kind of get to that place around that understanding with our, with our clientele, right? Where, you know, there's only about 20% of our clients that are actually looking for us, right?

  [00:04:16] That, that, that have an understanding and awareness and are like, I'm out here window shopping 'cause I know I need this thing. Right? And for a lot of us, what we do, especially if you're in like the coaching realm, consulting realm, it's um, you're selling the invisible, you're not selling an actual tangible thing.

  [00:04:32] And so that makes it even harder because you don't have a thing. It's like, you know, if you have a, an i, if you have a phone or if you have, you know, uh, a TV or if you have a book or if you have anything like that, you're selling that thing. And it's, and it's much easier to kinda sell that thing. Whereas if you're saying like, Hey, I'm gonna help you with this transformation or I'm gonna help you with this thing.

  [00:04:53] Um, but they may be like, nah, I'm good. I don't have that thing whatcha talking

  [00:04:57] Abby Havermann: Exactly right. Exactly. And I apologize. I put my phone on airplane mode, but.

  [00:05:04] Gabe Ratliff: Speaking of phones,

  [00:05:05] Abby Havermann: Yeah, I, that's so weird. I literally put it in airplane mode, which I thought would be the solution to all problems, but it's

  [00:05:12] Gabe Ratliff: Right.

  [00:05:13] Abby Havermann: Um, so yeah.

  [00:05:14] Gabe Ratliff: so we're good?

  [00:05:15] Abby Havermann: Okay, good. Um, yeah, no, it, it, yes, I agree. It's, it's the intangible and on top of that, I don't know if we mentioned, but I'm, I'm rebranding and so it's super important from that standpoint too, because I'm sure you guys know going through the rebranding process is extensive and expensive and, um, you know, all of the things.

  [00:05:35] And so I'd love to just continue to, you know, this is important in that, that this is part of that effort.

  [00:05:43] Gabe Ratliff: Sure. So where do we wanna get to by the end of the conversation and how will we know we got there? What are we

  [00:05:50] Abby Havermann: Well, listen, I mean, listen, if I came up with a tagline that would be, I'd be over the moon. Um, but even just. Just having a better language, you know, like, I don't know if I wanna call it an elevator pitch or something, but just clarity in my own mind, like, yes, that, and I'll know because it will hit intuitively.

  [00:06:10] It'll be like, yeah, that expresses it, you know? Um, I

  [00:06:15] Gabe Ratliff: Okay. Sure. And, and by the way, just to clarify, if you hear any of the sounds in here, just so that I'm going back and forth from questioning and whatnot when I'm asking questions, um, that, that I'm taking notes. So if you see me looking down, I'm, I'm not disconnected. I'm present. Very much so. So, um, my first question that came up, you, you've mentioned rebranding.

  [00:06:36] You mentioned it before we started to record. Why rebranding?

  [00:06:42] Abby Havermann: My brand is so outdated. I mean, I, it's really like, it was something that I threw up, you know, when I started like very beginning, I didn't even know really where I was going. And so, um, I had a, you know, like I picked a, a logo based on just, ah, I need something. And it's kind of like a flower. It was like a flower.

  [00:07:03] And it's really doesn't speak to the people that, that I'm interested in working with. Like, I'm definitely looking at a different, Someone who would not really be drawn to that. The people that I'm looking to work with or that I do work with are people who in general might look at that and feel like it's soft or it's foofy or you know, that kind of thing.

  [00:07:24] So from that standpoint, and then, um, yeah, just, uh, colors and whatnot, I need to like, there has to be a lot more functionality to my website now 'cause I have courses and things like that that I just didn't have before. And so there's a lot of, a lot of reasons why.

  [00:07:46] Gabe Ratliff: Okay, great. So my next question is, let's help us understand like who are your ideal clients now? Who are the people that you, 'cause you said before we started rolling, I know my people, who are they? Who are

  [00:08:00] Abby Havermann: Yeah. So my people are generally, uh, women in their probably early fifties, uh, who are. You know, they're, they, well, I, I always say, you know, everyone thinks they're a rockstar on the outside, but they feel like a hot mess on the inside. And so they're generally people who are, have pretty lofty goals and are pretty high achieving and has got, have gotten to, um, uh, you know, a great place professionally in their lives.

  [00:08:35] Um, they have gotten there through, you know, a means of really being all things to all people, being in incredibly smart and bright. Um, but they're, well, they're, you know, they're often, they're burnt out. Um, and so I'm just gonna like, say it all and then this is, this is where it gets confusing, right? This is where I need the, the, um, you know, um, so they typically are,

  [00:09:12] So they're not super, um, like into taking care of themselves in the sense of really paying attention to what's going on inside them that will, that will elicit a feeling of selfishness. Um, they tend to say yes when they may, no. They, um, are unconsciously as we all are unconsciously functioning out of, you know, whatever our automatic programs are.

  [00:09:37] But theirs tend to be guilt or shame. There's an underlying worthiness issue, which I think basically, you know, the whole world has, but there's, um, really, it really manifests in a, in a specific way. Um, So there's a lot of unconscious self betrayals that are going on that they don't really realize, and they, those cause resentment and, um, burnout and lack of clarity and, you know, all kinds of things because they've been conditioned to really not listen to themselves.

  [00:10:10] And for women it's a completely different reason than men. But it's the same function. You know, their, their, their emotions and their feelings, which are automatic and unconscious are driving their choices and behaviors, which are no longer leading them toward the to optimal outcomes. So they maybe have some of the things that they want in place in their lives, but internally they're feeling.

  [00:10:37] Less inner peace than would be optimal. Maybe it's showing up in anxiety or fear or, you know, guilt or shame or maybe it's showing up in, in the relationships that they have. Um, little things that, you know, if they're in their companies, you know, their derive for perfectionism, things like that. Um, so those are typically the people I'm looking for.

  [00:11:02] There is a small, there's a, there's another little sweet spot that sometimes comes in when there's people in there like, Early, mid thirties. And they, and the reason that I give these two, um, age points is because there's usually enough motivation for one reason or another that these people are like, I've gotta fix, figure this out.

  [00:11:24] And when they're in their earlier, mid thirties, it's generally because they have children and they really don't want their kids to have the same experience that they had growing up. And they wanna make sure that they are on top of whatever's going on, um, in their behavior. They're having experiences where they don't like their behavior.

  [00:11:42] You know, maybe they're having like angry outbursts or they're in this sort of anger shame cycle. Um, these people like have a really rigid idea of like what is right and what is wrong. Um, so that can trip them up as well. Um, so. Typically those are like my sweet spots, and usually not to a person, but usually when they're in their sort of forties and mid forties, the drive to achieve is so overwhelming that they have a harder time buying in to, you know, the, the thesis and the belief that like, if we can figure out, if we can manage your inner world, your outer world is going to fall into place.

  [00:12:28] They can intellectualize that and they'll be like, yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right. But really, you know, like, but part of me saying, no, I really do need to stay up until midnight and finish this. I really do need to do all these things. Um, and then the same things keep happening over and over and over again.

  [00:12:48] That's kinda a long winding answer, but as endemic of the problem that I'm having, which I just haven't, you know, nailed it.

  [00:12:59] Gabe Ratliff: It sounds like you have nailed it. I mean, I, you know, I, I just, hold on one sec. Sorry. I'm just trying to get my notes here. Okay. So, I mean, that's, you're helping us get this picture right of like who this is. So, I, I, if it's okay, I'd love to share this back of what I heard.

  [00:13:19] Abby Havermann: Okay.

  [00:13:19] Gabe Ratliff: So what I heard as far as your first avatar is women in their early fifties. They think they're a rockstar on the outside or they are. Right. They are a rockstar, right?

  [00:13:29] Like they've, you said they, they're high achievers. They're successful professionals. They've got, they do all the things for all the people. I mean, women are amazing. My wife is one of these people, she's not in her fifties, but like, she's this woman who's just a powerhouse. She, I, I call her my, my Valkyrie warrior princess, you know, or like my, you know, wonder Woman or whatnot.

  [00:13:49] Like, I'm always giving her these, these titles because she's this kind of person. But inside I get it. Like I see that, right? There's this inside of like, not taking care of oneself, 'cause you're taking care of others and, and not to call her out. But this is common for a lot of women, right? It's because you've been giving, giving, giving, giving, giving for your whole life.

  [00:14:09] And there's this wonderful video that, uh, there a bunch of celebrities did. Do you know this video? I think it was actually it, it, it's made its rounds on online. But these women were, uh, like, like actors and all these different celebrities, and they were speaking to all of the. All of the parameters that women have to fill.

  [00:14:27] Don't be too fat, don't be too stupid. Don't be too, do you know the one I'm talking about? I think it was for like a, a, uh, some kind of a beauty line, but the whole idea was around all these constraints that women have to fit in. And I thought it was such a beautiful thing because it speaks to this kind of a, a dynamic, um, no matter what age it is.

  [00:14:43] But what you found is you've got women in their early fifties, they're high achievers, they're rock stars, but on inside they're a hot mess. Um, smart, bright, successful. They're burnout. They don't take care of themselves. They're not attentive to themselves. They're yes people, they're pleasers. They have guilt or shame, worthiness issues.

  [00:15:04] Uh, and you said it manifests in a specific way, which that to me was something I'd love to know more about. Like what is that specific way you said they, um, they have these unconscious self betrayals resentments, lack of clarity. I. They're conditioned to not listen to themselves, which is exactly what I was talking about.

  [00:15:20] That's what I loved about that, that that commercial that those women did. 'cause it speaks to all that conditioning that's happened over an entire, you know, uh, societal, um, you know, over generations and generations. Right? Um, they have things in their lives that seem great, but inside, as you said, they're a mess.

  [00:15:39] They're perfectionists. They have anger, shame cycles. Uh, they have this rigid idea of what is right and wrong, which can trip them up. Then you said you have a second avatar that is like, uh, they're in their early to mid thirties. That is kind of that leapfrog from the forties where it's this really driven time of your life, right?

  [00:15:57] You're out there achieving, um,

  [00:16:01] Abby Havermann: It's not so much that it's, yeah, it's not, there's no less drivenness in any of 'em. It's that there's a less consciousness, less maybe drive to, to stop. Nothing has, it's not the beginning of anything where you're like, I wanna do this. Right. And it's not like you, you kids are gone. You, you wake up and you look up and you're like, what the hell is like, I'm.

  [00:16:24] I'm done being this exhausted and this burnt out and this resentful all the time. But the drive is there for these people regardless because, and it's really, it's men and it's women. It because there is something that is specific about the people that, that I love to work with, is they attach their worth to the amount that they achieve.

  [00:16:44] So that could be, you know, monetary. Oftentimes it's monetary, um, but it's also, you know, impact, um, what they're, what they're accomplishing. And so they're going from one thing to the next, to the next. It's like, you know, when you're, um, you know, well you, you got this and that's great, but it's, you can't even recognize.

  [00:17:04] It's like you're onto the next thing, okay, but now I need that. I got, I obtained this, you know, and now I need that. And it's constantly looking for something, uh, external to fix something internal. But that's what people don't realize that they're doing. So to say that is not really going to resonate with many people.

  [00:17:24] Because they don't recognize that, and it, it goes beyond, it also goes beyond, you know, this idea that women are like, they're just giving and giving and giving somebody. Yeah, they do. I know that, but that's not really what it is. You know, because that's, you know, that's sort of a, a pat explanation for what I think is really going on.

  [00:17:44] You know, because I, I don't see myself as somebody that just gives, and gives and gives by any stretch of the meat. My, my husband makes dinner, he does the dishes. He, although makes more money, like, you know, I don't see myself that way at all. Um, it's more that. To use a, a reference, um, you know, if you go back in time, right?

  [00:18:06] Like women have been defined, their worth has been tied, as is the truth for men too. It's just different things. So men, their worth is defined in their ability to provide, they, they get very anxious when their wife or spouse doesn't, is upset. They feel like they have to fix it, they take it personally.

  [00:18:25] You know, it's, it's somehow, it's a criticism against them somehow because that's how they have been conditioned that they need to do. Women have been conditioned that their worth is defined by, you know, way back from their dowry to their waistline and then in the seventies to how well they can bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan.

  [00:18:42] You know? And so the, the problem for women specifically in this realm that they have is that we've been conditioned to believe this. So when the world opened up in the seventies and then said, oh, you guys can work. You now can go do all these things and you can have a credit card and you can da, da, da, and you'll remember that commercial.

  [00:19:05] I can bring home the bacon, I can fry it up in a pan, and I can never let you forget. You're a man. And everyone talks about that. The problem is these expectations that are on women, the problem is not the expectations in my mind, and that's what women are always saying, oh, I have to do this and I have to do that because they need this and da dah, dah, dah.

  [00:19:23] That's not the problem. The problem is that we've been conditioned into believing that our worth depends on how well we do those things or how the people around us feel about us or how well we do those things, because that's our conditioning. That is a, that's an unconscious belief that we perpetuate.

  [00:19:47] So you can tell me that you want me to do this, but I am at free will theoretically. To say, gosh, I'd love to do that for you, Gabe. I just, I don't have the bandwidth, but I'm not at free will because I have an unconscious process that has been conditioned into me over thousands and thousands of years that without stopping and thinking about it, I'm gonna say, okay, and, and what do you need to do?

  [00:20:16] You need something too. Okay. Yeah. And, and then I will, when I am completely exhausted, because I have done that to myself, because I have not learned how to tolerate the anxiety that comes with saying no or tolerating the feelings of selfishness. That comes with looking inside and saying, can I do that?

  [00:20:37] How do I feel about this? Do I want to, do I not want to? Then I'm exhausted, and so then I limp to the spa and get a massage and. When I lose my mind 10 minutes after I got home, after the massage, because whatever happened in our external world that sets us off. I blame myself. What did I do wrong? I got the massage.

  [00:21:03] I should be able to like hold my shit together now. But a massage does not. There's no, I always say there's no spa day special for self betrayal. You can't betray yourself for months on end and then think that a 60 or 90 minute massage is gonna make up for that. It's not. Does that clarify anymore?

  [00:21:25] Gabe Ratliff: It's awesome. And what I heard there, and I'm, I'm, uh, I would love for you to, my next question is around what do you do to help these women? One of the things that just came up for me right there though, is around their, is they have an issue with boundaries. Right. That's what I heard. There's, there's a, I'm, uh, an unworthiness, there's a conditioning to give and do and just be these super women and to give, give, give, give, give.

  [00:21:57] Then they're burnout, but then they're like, well, I'm going to either, you know, go to a spa or I'm gonna, you know, uh, what do they call it? Um, what do they call it? The shopping therapy or

  [00:22:08] Abby Havermann: Oh yeah. Uhhuh Retail therapy.

  [00:22:10] Gabe Ratliff: retail therapy. Yeah. So there's the retail therapy, there's the spa days, there's the, I'm gonna go, you know, on a girl's trip and I'm gonna cut loose, right.

  [00:22:19] Wine and chocolate and p you know, pasta and pizza, all the stuff I can't do in front of my husband or whatever. And, uh, and actually be, you know, let all of this out. But then you have to, then there's the coming back and then the catching back up, right? And then back onto the next. Always it's the destination.

  [00:22:38] The destination, not the journey because of this conditioning. Did I hear that correctly?

  [00:22:44] Abby Havermann: Yeah, it's that it's not just the destination, it's that you can go on vacation and 30 minutes later you're exhausted because you are, you're ex, you're, you're wasting your resources all the way leading up to, I mean, on vacation you feel good, but as soon as the external world comes back in, you're fucked because you don't know how to manage that.

  [00:23:04] And so it's funny that you talk about boundaries. 'cause I give a talk on boundaries, and I just gave it this week actually, because we are told to manage our lives, we need to set boundaries, and that's a crock of shit because setting boundaries doesn't work because we can't control what other people do.

  [00:23:22] So we have this really misguided notion in our lives that the expression of our desire is setting a boundary. That's not setting a boundary, that's expressing your desires. Building the great wall of China around you is not setting a boundary. It's, it's, it doesn't like, so, so these ideas that, that if I just say something well enough or I do it right enough or whatever, I will stop Having people cross my boundaries is ridiculous.

  [00:23:52] They, they could cross it or not cross it. I could tell you exactly what I want and you could just do whatever you do. I always say, my husband, I've been telling him for years to stop buying so much food 'cause I don't wanna waste it. And he tells me to stop taking his shit and losing it. And neither of us do either.

  [00:24:06] It's not because we don't love or respect each other, I just, you know, the food looked good and I needed a phone charger and we're on our own automatic. You know, that's just how life goes, right? So the idea is not that we are gonna set a boundary properly and then everybody else is gonna fall in line again, it goes back to, the problem is not that people expect too much of us or are thoughtless or incompetent or stupid.

  [00:24:30] The the problem is that we haven't, that we lose our minds when that happens. The problem is that we get so off balance when that happens. So it comes back to we're trying to fix a problem that exists in here. Irritation, annoyance, shame, guilt, anxiety. It only exists in here by trying to control and manage these things out here.

  [00:24:56] Jude Schweppe: I have a question, Abby, if, if that's okay.

  [00:24:59] Abby Havermann: Yeah.

  [00:25:00] Jude Schweppe: Um, would your clients describe themselves as a hot mess?

  [00:25:07] Abby Havermann: Yes. The women would, the women, the women would. They would say, yeah,

  [00:25:14] Jude Schweppe: I

  [00:25:14] Abby Havermann: one knows I'm a hot mess.

  [00:25:16] Jude Schweppe: okay, so, so what is their definition of a hot mess? Is it, is it different from what you've just described?

  [00:25:24] Abby Havermann: I think that's a good question. I don't, I would like have to ask, but I think that the hot mess to them feels like maybe that things aren't going perfectly. Um, that they lose their tempers, you know? Um, and then they feel very ashamed of when they lose their tempers, um, that they can't get people to fall in line and do what it is they need them to do in the way they need to do it.

  [00:25:54] And they should be able to, that they are exhausted and burnt out all the time and they shouldn't be. Um, you know, sometimes they're physically sick all the time. Why can't I just hold it together? It's, it always comes back to why can't I, like the expectations of themselves is insane. And, but the, the cheap way that that's dealt with is to say, well, you just need to either say no or you need to just do less.

  [00:26:22] And these are people that aren't gonna do less because their worth their belief. Their unconscious belief is that their worth is tied to how much they can do and how well they can do it

  [00:26:33] Jude Schweppe: Okay, so what, what is their relationship with no, like usually.

  [00:26:38] Abby Havermann: with no, um, usually, um, saying no will either elicit something like, oh God, that other person isn't gonna like it. That's, it's gonna be, it's gonna make them anxious, or it's gonna be like, It'll be a shit show if I say no, or it could be like, I could say no, but then it'll get done wrong and then I'll have to do it.

  [00:27:01] And so on a regular basis, what they're doing is they're choosing the resentment that will inevitably follow over the anxiety or the fear or the tolerance that's necessary for things not being done exactly their way that would occur when they say no.

  [00:27:21] Jude Schweppe: Okay, so how would you, if you were to use one word or one phrase to describe their relationship with No, what would it be? I.

  [00:27:30] Abby Havermann: Hmm. That's a good question. Okay. Their relationship with no would be no, it would be no, no to, no. It would be, um, unacceptable.

  [00:27:45] Jude Schweppe: Okay.

  [00:27:46] Abby Havermann: incompetent Maybe. Maybe they'd even see themselves as incompetent to say no, or I think unacceptable.

  [00:27:54] Jude Schweppe: Okay.

  [00:27:54] Abby Havermann: More, more problem that, more trouble than it's worth.

  [00:27:58] Jude Schweppe: And what would be a healthy relationship to know for these women in your experience working with them?

  [00:28:04] Abby Havermann: A healthy relationship would be a pause, uh, a looking inward, a very conscious, purposeful, internal analysis of the pros and cons. Um, what historically will happen. Um, and a lot of courage. A lot of courage to say, I'm gonna take on, I'm gonna manage this guilt and shame that's coming up for me, or whatever it is, or the anxiety.

  [00:28:36] I'm gonna choose to manage that in in here instead of saying yes out here. So I don't have to feel that right now, but I know ultimately then I'm gonna feel resentment. Or annoyance or exhaustion or illness?

  [00:28:56] Jude Schweppe: Okay, so is there something around. Wanting to transform the relationship with no, from something that brings up automatic feelings of guilt and shame and anxiety into what would it be?

  [00:29:13] Abby Havermann: Oh, uh, the transformation. Um, it would really, I mean, in the beginning stages, it would really be courage. I mean, that's really what it is because it's, it's courage about coming up against your own automatic programming and some really, really uncomfortable feelings and some really misguided, but, but firm beliefs that, um, I'm gonna be, and, and, and the, and the real possibilities.

  [00:29:40] I could be left, I could lose this relationship. Um, people could be mad at me. You know, I could feel selfish and that's my God. Being selfish is the worst thing in the world for someone to be. Um, yeah. So courage.

  [00:29:57] Jude Schweppe: There's something that's just coming up for me around the word tranquility.

  [00:30:02] Abby Havermann: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

  [00:30:04] Jude Schweppe: So stepping into a more tranquil,

  [00:30:06] Abby Havermann: I like that word. Yes,

  [00:30:10] Jude Schweppe: um, having a more peaceful, tranquil, uh, less frantic, more even, you know, being more on an even keel with the word no and saying no and actioning no. Does that, is that resonating?

  [00:30:33] Abby Havermann: it is. And this is the loophole in that I love the word tranquility 'cause I often say inner peace or something like that. I, I love that word. And I, and again, like I, but I don't know, like, does the, does the potential client, I do think they would say they want tranquility, you know, but they want. The client more, they want the job more, they want the, you know, they're willing to risk that and they don't realize that they could have both.

  [00:30:56] But, um, but the piece about it is the no that you're mentioning. So like when you say with no, because for example, a lot of people will, like, what I say in my talk is like, you know, saying no or standing up for yourself in a self-righteous dust storm is not setting boundaries. Setting boundaries is, it's an energy that you emanate, that you have within yourself.

  [00:31:26] It's comes out of a groundedness of who you are. And so a lot of times when you just talk about no, um, people will walk around, they'll be like, like the first stages of this always looks the same because people don't feel worthy enough to do it themselves. So it'll be like, well, no, I don't have to do that.

  [00:31:45] It might even be like Abby said, I don't have to, or no, I, you know, I've co I've collected all of the opinions from the court of the world and everybody agrees, no, I don't need to. That's not, a stage that people have to get through, but that's not, that's not what it's about. So the problem is, I, I hesitate to narrow it in to no.

  [00:32:07] If that makes sense.

  [00:32:08] Jude Schweppe: Yeah, because it's almost like maybe that feels quite rebellious or it feels like, you know, a bit foot stamp. Um, so they haven't quite embraced all that No. Can bring and

  [00:32:21] Abby Havermann: Well, they haven't embraced tran, they haven't embraced tranquility in that. Right.

  [00:32:24] Jude Schweppe: Yeah.

  [00:32:25] Abby Havermann: That the tranquility is where we're going. Not the, not the No, you can say, but you can be perfectly tranquil and say yes. You just have to check in and make sure it's okay with you. You have to, you have to be all right with it.

  [00:32:35] Jude Schweppe: Yeah, so if we're, if we're taking them on a journey from hot mess, where do they get to at the end of that journey?

  [00:32:42] Abby Havermann: So I have a class. Called hot Mess to Harmony. So that's the, the shorter, the shorter class. Um, and it really is about shifting. It's really about shifting that energy. You know, it's about going from, you know, burnout to badass. You know, it's, it's going from really feeling like run down and externally driven to having this really firm connection with your intuition and, and, and, and even not even, you don't even necessarily have to have that firm in connection with your intuition because there's been so many years of conditioning that sometimes it's just the, the insistence that I am going to settle down here first and figure out what is going on, um, before I make any moves, because this is what's most important.

  [00:33:36] It's, it's really, it's, it's quieting down the left center of your brain and opening up the right center. So like we go at it from a lot of different ways, right? We can talk about it from a neuroscience perspective. We can talk about it in a lot of different ways. Um,

  [00:33:51] Jude Schweppe: I am curious, do, do your clients know what is causing them to be a hot mess when they come to you?

  [00:33:59] Abby Havermann: oh, well, they think everything that's going on in their life is their parents, their kids, their spouses, their in-laws, their neighbors, their job, their employees, their boss.

  [00:34:09] Jude Schweppe: Hmm.

  [00:34:09] Abby Havermann: That's what they think is it. But what I'm saying is that what I'm teaching is that that is not it. It's that you've attached your worth to what all of these people do.

  [00:34:19] Listen, there's irritating people in the world. Like that's how I end one of my talks is like, yeah, like we're get, people in situations are irritating, but as soon as you sacrifice your internal state, when you're a hot mess. You know, that's when you're, you're not in control. You're giving up your, you know, your freedom.

  [00:34:45] Jude Schweppe: what, because you talked earlier about, you know, giving people what they need. When you, they think that you're giving them what they want, what do they typically come to you and say, I want this. What is the want in their head?

  [00:34:57] Abby Havermann: Well, you know, it really depends. 'cause it could be like the crisis du jour, right? It could be whatever is happening. Their business is blowing up, their marriage is blowing up. Um, they're, they're really sick, like chronically run down and sick. Um, it could be. A number of things like that. It's usually something, you know, or they're just, they've had it, they don't have the connection they want in their relationship and they just, you know, they've just had it.

  [00:35:30] Or maybe they've got a child that has an addiction or, you know, something like that. And they just, they've been working so hard to try and fix this person. Um, and they usually, you know, will say, well, I gotta do something. You know, like, that's usually like one of the last things they say before they're like, I, I gotta do something, you know?

  [00:35:52] 'cause I, I cannot go on like this.

  [00:35:54] Jude Schweppe: so I'm curious to, to know what do they, what do they think you are going to facilitate for them in the, in the midst of this crisis? If, if that's their problem, what do they, how do they think you're gonna fix it?

  [00:36:12] Abby Havermann: Well, okay, so this is a good question because it, it really goes toward the second piece of who I wanna work with. I, I am, I, I, I only meet people like at a certain level of consciousness, certain level of self-awareness. So they have to have an interest and an ability to look at themselves. And that might be expedited because they've gone through so much that they're like, they've had it, they're ready.

  [00:36:39] Or it could be because they've done 10 years of coaching and they've, they're at a certain level, but they're not able to get to the next level. And they haven't, you know, met the person who, who knows more than. Them around that, or they need to, you know, um, so it's a good question. Like, I, so I don't know. I think they, I don't know. Like, I don't know, do they, do they have awareness that it's like if I could just feel more peaceful, um, like I don't, I don't think that those people that I'm looking to work with would say that I'm just gonna tell them what to do to make all these people do the right things.

  [00:37:22] I don't think they would say that they know better than that. Um, I think they would, they would say that I'm gonna help them get ahold of themselves. Maybe. It's a good, it's a really good question.

  [00:37:40] Jude Schweppe: yeah, I, it, it might even be worth, um, I don't, I'm sure you've done this, but if not, maybe just interviewing some previous clients and saying, why did you come to me? What were you hoping for? What were you looking for? And I'm, I'm curious to know

  [00:37:59] Gabe Ratliff: And what did you get?

  [00:38:00] Jude Schweppe: Yeah. And

  [00:38:03] Abby Havermann: and I did have someone from my team interview, uh, several clients and I just haven't seen the interviews yet.

  [00:38:08] Jude Schweppe: okay. I, I'm, I'm gonna bet there'll be a lot of insight there, but also, what are they ready for?

  [00:38:17] Abby Havermann: They're really ready for like massive upscale, like they're, they're really ready to evolve themselves. That's my ideal client. Like, I'm not really super interested in people that just like want a bandaid or, you know, want like, so sometimes I'll meet with someone, for example, and they'll say, um, Have a, we'll have a, a, a meet a coaching session where be like, oh, they, they've got it, you know, they totally got it, you know, that's great.

  [00:38:47] You know, and, and they went off with that insight and they think that that's it. And that's less like the person that I wanna work with, you know what I mean? Or the one that says, oh yeah, like, I wanna just do more of that, you know, but they're not really making, like, changes internally. So then sometimes that person will come back and be like, oh, I thought I had it, but then I got in traffic and I got all worked up again, you know, or whatever.

  [00:39:14] Then I had a fight with my spouse and it happened. I couldn't remember what you said, like the person who thinks like that it, that this work is just, you know, getting a few tips or some ideas or whatever. It's not, it's really like massive internal change because nothing in our lives change until we change. And that takes some time to metabolize that understanding.

  [00:39:41] Jude Schweppe: Yeah. So it's like an internal revolution

  [00:39:45] Abby Havermann: Yeah. Kind of.

  [00:39:46] Jude Schweppe: to

  [00:39:46] Abby Havermann: Yeah. Yeah.

  [00:39:49] Jude Schweppe: Yeah. Internal revolution feels.

  [00:39:52] Abby Havermann: I like that.

  [00:39:54] Jude Schweppe: What exciting, like I'm ready for an internal revolution. Thank you.

  [00:39:58] Abby Havermann: I like that. Who is it? I'm ready for that every day. I don't every revolution. I want another revolution.

  [00:40:03] Gabe Ratliff: Right. Well, and it's like a lifestyle choice, right? Like, it's like what you and I have talked about before about with our fitness and nutrition lifestyle change, right? Like that's, it's like, I wanna live this way. I've decided I wanna live this way. I've let go of this previous self and said, I'm good with you.

  [00:40:21] Thanks. I'm moving forward now. Right? And it's like, I wanna live in this, in internal revolution that's also externally being,

  [00:40:30] Abby Havermann: Yeah.

  [00:40:31] Gabe Ratliff: Right? Actionable about it. I'm making choices and I'm doing the work. I'm doing the work. I heard that in what you were saying. These people are ready to do the work

  [00:40:41] Abby Havermann: yes,

  [00:40:42] Gabe Ratliff: and it's hard work, right?

  [00:40:44] This is conditioning for generations. It's literally transmuted through our genes and our commercial, the com, you know, all of the, the feed that's now surrounding us. Right. It's the advertising, it's the, the TV shows, it's the movies, it's the, all of the stuff. It's, you know, all of the things that we take in the love songs, all of the things, right?

  [00:41:06] Like they're just repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and getting cooler and different in this generation, and then repeated in other generation, right? Like, like style and fashion that comes back. It's all getting repeated and regurgitated. And it might have a different guise or sheen, and it may look different and it may be cool for this generation, right?

  [00:41:27] But it's still the same, right? Like there's seven stories they can be told over and over again. Right. And it's

  [00:41:33] Abby Havermann: the same.

  [00:41:33] Gabe Ratliff: thing. Yeah.

  [00:41:34] Abby Havermann: when people realize that it's not their fault, you know, that's when it can feel like a revolution. Like, oh, this is just my conditioning. These are just the unconscious steps that I'm taking. It's not my fault

  [00:41:48] Gabe Ratliff: And it's not

  [00:41:49] Abby Havermann: manage everything and it's not linear.

  [00:41:51] Gabe Ratliff: It's not linear. That was one of the biggest things that really landed for me in this kind of work, is that it's not fucking linear. Life

  [00:41:58] Abby Havermann: Yeah, you're not done. No.

  [00:42:00] Gabe Ratliff: business life is not linear. My personal life is not, our lives are not linear. I had a, I had a couple of ideas that I wanted to pose for us to kind of like, shake it up and, and like play a little bit more.

  [00:42:12] Abby Havermann: Okay.

  [00:42:12] Gabe Ratliff: Uh, there's an exercise I was thinking about that we could do that Jude and I like to do. And then I was also thinking about we could, um, uh, after that, maybe try a role play, if

  [00:42:21] Abby Havermann: Okay,

  [00:42:21] Gabe Ratliff: good. Just see where that goes. Is that, are we open to that? Okay. So the, the, the first exercise is, I help blank do blank so that they blank.

  [00:42:31] Super simple. And we've been, you've been using all this wonderful language.

  [00:42:35] Abby Havermann: Yeah. So I, I mean, I would say I help, I mean, this is what I've used before, is I help women go from hot mess to harmony so they can jump into awakened aligned action in their lives personally and professionally.

  [00:42:53] Gabe Ratliff: I help women go from hot mess to harmony so they can jump. What was the rest?

  [00:42:57] Abby Havermann: Into awakened, aligned action in their personal and professional lives.

  [00:43:03] Gabe Ratliff: Action?

  [00:43:04] Jude Schweppe: have a question. That. Do they know what awakened and aligned action means? Is that their language?

  [00:43:11] Abby Havermann: No. Like, that's some of the pillars of the class that I teach, so, right. It doesn't, yeah. I mean,

  [00:43:18] Jude Schweppe: language be on that?

  [00:43:20] Gabe Ratliff: That was my que Yeah, that was my question.

  [00:43:25] Abby Havermann: so they can maybe make choices that lead to desired their desired outcomes. Maybe that might be closer. Um,

  [00:43:44] Jude Schweppe: Can you simplify it?

  [00:43:46] Abby Havermann: choices. Um, Um,

  [00:43:58] Gabe Ratliff: May I share the one that I had been noodling with when you

  [00:44:01] Abby Havermann: yeah, please. Yeah.

  [00:44:02] Gabe Ratliff: with Jude? This is what I, some of the language I heard, helping high achieving women to shift from hot mess to harmony and from burnout to badass so they can let go of the anxiety of saying no and find the courage to find peace. I don't know if that's quite it, but one of the things, because I, I, I, I've, we, today is actually our, our 15 year anniversary and having this time with this person who just is amazing and has some of these things that you're talking about, right? Just this, badass that's burned out.

  [00:44:43] Abby Havermann: Right.

  [00:44:44] Gabe Ratliff: So I've seen it.

  [00:44:45] I've witnessed it. And that's part of the beauty of being in a, in a, in a relationship in a partnership like this, is that you get to witness each other's lives. Right. And, um, there's a beautiful line from Bur Bull Durham where Susan Sarandon says that to Kevin Costner that we actually had in our vows.

  [00:45:01] And we love that idea of witnessing each other. Right.

  [00:45:04] Abby Havermann: Uh,

  [00:45:05] Gabe Ratliff: And so I sit with that and that's one of the things that I recognize as I was listening to you talk about your people, right? They're so high achievers and they, they're not woo generally is what I'm kind

  [00:45:16] Abby Havermann: No, exactly.

  [00:45:17] Gabe Ratliff: but they're not. Right.

  [00:45:18] Like you are to a degree from what I've gathered from us, right.

  [00:45:22] Abby Havermann: I mean, I can go there. I can go there, but I'm grounded in the science

  [00:45:26] Gabe Ratliff: Right. Yes, exactly. And that's what, why I wanted to make sure that that was clear, um, that you have an understanding of it. You're grounded in science and you're helping them, these similar women who are not woo. Find this place of peace without having to use that language, right?

  [00:45:46] Like with like these people who are, have been like putting this armor on and going out to battle the dragons their whole entire lives of these empowered women and they don't use those lang those words because they find them to be too soft. Would you

  [00:46:04] Abby Havermann: And vulnerable. Yeah, exactly. Too soft. They don't like it. Vulnerability is bad. And then you give them some permission 'cause they see me and I function in the world very similarly. And then they hear me talking in that way. And you know, it's, it opens up a a little. A window, you know? Um, but yeah, it's not like we're gonna take your astrology and we're gonna like go and eat berries and, you know, sleep on a bed of wood chips.

  [00:46:35] You know, we're not doing that. Like this is eyes open, like we need boots on the ground here. But to do that, you have to be able to close your eyes and go into meditation. You have to be able to shift your brain and body physiologically into a different place. And so, you know, we can incorporate some, and, and we need to sometimes, you know, I mean, there's, life is hard.

  [00:46:57] There's some shit that goes down in life that, you know, you really have to understand at a different level to be able to tolerate. You know, like, I mean, and I talk about this all the time, you know, with people, you know, like I, I have a child who has a disability, and I use this as an example all the time.

  [00:47:12] You know, you, you. I could tell you that my pregnancy was ridiculously stressful and this kid like bathed in stress fluid. Like that's what he did. And if I knew now, if I knew then what I know now, I would've done this completely differently and my brain could get down away. Oh. And if I did it differently than he wouldn't have this problem.

  [00:47:32] But that's not what I believe, because that belief, first of all, good, bad, or indifferent, would I wouldn't get out of bed in the morning, would I, I would feel guilty all day, every day. Right. And I wouldn't be able to show up for him the way that he needs someone to show up for him, which is, you know, Hey, you've, you've got a lot to offer this world here.

  [00:47:50] We're not, we're not laying down here. You know? Um, my belief, you know, is that his, his soul found my womb because that's the only place he could have come to have to live out his soul's journey was to find a womb that was completely stressed out. And, you know, whatever, if that, you know, like it, he would've found it somewhere else. So, you know, To me, like sometimes, you know, I can get away with talking to people about the difficult things in their lives and being like, have you ever thought about this? You know, and what if your evolution is what is helping this child of yours evolve? And what, you know, like, let's broaden that picture out.

  [00:48:34] Because right now in stress, which is, you know, when we get in stress, we get very narrowly focused

  [00:48:40] Gabe Ratliff: Mm-hmm.

  [00:48:41] Abby Havermann: and very self-focused is all my fault. You know?

  [00:48:46] Gabe Ratliff: So all that being said, then, Abby, if we're thinking about if, if we're empathizing with these women, that you are yourself. Right? That's what I heard. This is you, yourself and you, you have real time life examples of this. What is that transformation for them without getting into that woo language? Like what is that?

  [00:49:09] That's like gonna get them to their core and go, oh my God, I want that. I.

  [00:49:15] Abby Havermann: I mean, I think it goes back to the tranquility. You know, I, I do, I think it just, it goes back to like, I just want to have of mind and they, you know, but they also want all the other things, right? Like, they want, they want their business to be going well, they want their, they want fulfillment in their relationship.

  [00:49:31] They want what they know on some level they're worthy of having, or they, you know,

  [00:49:39] Jude Schweppe: There's,

  [00:49:40] Abby Havermann: they would have.

  [00:49:42] Jude Schweppe: coming to me around the courage to embrace tranquility. When you are at that sort of burnt out, strung out, exhausted, you know, hamster wheel stage of your life, it takes enormous courage and conviction to be able to say, fuck this.

  [00:50:03] Abby Havermann: Yeah.

  [00:50:04] Jude Schweppe: I am, I am for tranquility. Now I am stepping into a relationship with tranquility because I'm done with all of that.

  [00:50:13] Abby Havermann: It does. It takes courage and determination and, and so that's why they have to be at a certain level of like fed up. They have to be like, because as people, we really think that we, we know we can't control everything, but we really think that we can't, like we don't believe it and they

  [00:50:29] Jude Schweppe: So

  [00:50:30] Abby Havermann: to be done

  [00:50:31] Jude Schweppe: yeah. So it's, there's something around, uh, the idea of the tranquility revolution and what are you overthrowing if you're ready for this revolution. If we think of it in those terms,

  [00:50:45] Abby Havermann: well. We're overthrowing self, self betrayal. Right. And self betrayal is when we. Make unconscious decisions because we feel guilty, because we feel anxious, because we feel fearful, because we feel ashamed, because we feel self selfish. So we're really overthrowing. Um, I mean, we're, we're over, we're overcoming ourselves, right? So like, to me, the focus is always inward, right? Like we're, we're very quick to say, oh, I wish I had this, or I wish I had that, or envy this person. Like, one of my greatest achievements was when I unmemorized envy, you know, like, that took work. It was hard.

  [00:51:32] I had to like, pull apart the neurons, you know, like it took active work, you know? So we're, we're overcoming ourselves, right? And these habituated states of being, um, we're overthrowing self betrayal, but I don't know that people, I. See what they're doing as self betrayal.

  [00:51:55] Jude Schweppe: So I'm just conscious of the time, Abby, 'cause I know you've, I know you've got a call. We're gonna send you this, um, recording and Gabe has been taking loads of notes and I feel as though if you, if you sort of sit back and listen to this and some of the words that have come up and you combine that with what you get from the interviews that you've already had, your assistant has already had with your clients, I feel like if you can lead with something that speaks to them or uses their language and then infuse it with some of your own, that still they will get and they'll understand and they will, you know, they'll resonate with, I think you'll have something really, really powerful, really.

  [00:52:34] But it's, it's about getting the order correct

  [00:52:38] Abby Havermann: Mm-hmm.

  [00:52:38] Jude Schweppe: speaking to, you know, what is it that they want that then I can support by saying, well, are you ready for this internal revolution? Are you ready for the tranquility revolution? You know, are you ready to overthrow all of this? So I'm,

  [00:52:52] Abby Havermann: Yeah,

  [00:52:53] Jude Schweppe: we haven't quite got to, you know, we haven't, uh, successfully got you your tagline yet.

  [00:52:59] But I think though, there's, there's a something really powerful emerging here, which is like this marriage of, oh my God, she's just described exactly where I am and what I need with your language, which is, can I just say incredibly powerful and inspiring and I, I, I, I wanna join your revolution,

  [00:53:19] Abby Havermann: I want everybody to join this revolution. We need more people on this revolution. Yeah.

  [00:53:25] Jude Schweppe: Yeah. Um, so how are, how are we, how are you, how are you, how are you

  [00:53:31] Abby Havermann: Good, good. It's interesting 'cause I'm, I'm meeting with one of my branding people, Nick, uh, later this afternoon as well. And so, um, Yeah, I mean, I think I have to say, I, I do like this idea of re of revolution and overthrowing and like, and this question of, it is a question of like, are you ready to overthrow this?

  [00:53:49] Because I, I don't wanna work with you if you're not. You know what I mean? Like, I, that's just, you don't need me. If you

  [00:53:56] Jude Schweppe: You're not.

  [00:53:57] Abby Havermann: if you're not, like there are a lot of people can help you, you know, you don't need me.

  [00:54:01] Jude Schweppe: Yeah. And there is definitely something there around the courage,

  [00:54:05] Abby Havermann: And the courage,

  [00:54:06] Jude Schweppe: takes courage to be a rebel. You know? It takes enormous courage and guts to be a rebel. And it's like, do you believe in yourself enough to join this revolution? You know, you yourself, you have to be your cause,

  [00:54:22] Abby Havermann: Right. And do you know that the reason that you don't is not your fault?

  [00:54:27] Jude Schweppe: Mm.

  [00:54:28] Abby Havermann: It's that you've been conditioned to believe that it's been handed down, but you are now self perpetuating it.

  [00:54:35] Gabe Ratliff: Right.

  [00:54:36] Jude Schweppe: there's something so liberating in that, so liberating in the idea that, oh, maybe it isn't all me, you know, but it's all part of the, sort of the process of learning on the other side as they move from this hot mess to this grounded, centered, tranquil, harmonious, knowing, being, knowing version of themselves.

  [00:54:59] Um, it's incredibly powerful and important work, really, really, and truly is. So thank you for doing it.

  [00:55:05] Abby Havermann: Thank you. Thanks you guys.

  [00:55:07] Gabe Ratliff: you bet.

  [00:55:08] Abby Havermann: is a fun conversation. I can't wait to listen back. I really appreciate what you guys are doing. I think it's awesome.

  [00:55:13] Gabe Ratliff: Thanks. Well, and I wanted to share back, like, here's what I kind of got from all that last little role play we were kind of doing there through like who this person is with Jude, uh, that you help high achieving women shift from hot mess to harmony and from burnout to badass so they can let go of the anxiety of saying no overthrow self betrayal and envy, and find the courage to embrace tranquility through an internal revolution.

  [00:55:40] Abby Havermann: Okay, cool.

  [00:55:42] Gabe Ratliff: So that,

  [00:55:43] Abby Havermann: to kind of

  [00:55:43] Gabe Ratliff: yeah. And, and remember, like one, one of the things that's great about this, the way that we work in this way is to pull all this information so you get all these words that you used, that you've, it's, it's your lexicon, right? And the great thing is that you can have your, your, you know, you can have that pitch,

  [00:56:00] Abby Havermann: write

  [00:56:01] Gabe Ratliff: but it's all about your lexicon, right?

  [00:56:03] And how you show up. And just getting clear about who are my people, right? Who are my people? How do I serve them? What, what are they gonna get? What is the pain? Like, how, like, as Jude says, you know what, if I'm a dentist, if I'm a dentist, you know what I help you with. I help you with the pain in your

  [00:56:21] Abby Havermann: Right, right.

  [00:56:22] Gabe Ratliff: and it's, it's understanding like, what is that pain for these women, these high achieving women that, that really want this, this revolution, you know, in a way that feels empowering to them because of how high achieving and, uh, because of all that conditioning that they've been

  [00:56:39] Abby Havermann: Yeah, I like that because, um, I'll just say this and I do have to jump on a call, but I, I did a TED Talk last year, which, you know, Gabe called Women's Liberation is an inside job, the end of Self Betrayal, and that speaks to that revolution.

  [00:56:54] Gabe Ratliff: Exactly.

  [00:56:55] Abby Havermann: this is a different revolution. The women's liberation was, we're going to let you out into the world.

  [00:57:00] Well, that's great, except I'm taking my same brain and my same conditioning out into the world. And so now all the things that I did in the home, taking care of everything and everyone, and feeling bad and guilty, I'm just gonna now do that in the work world. And now I get to do it in the work world and at home at the same time, and be a raving fucking lunatic. And the revolution is that this is the liberation is an inside job. It's it's not about you letting me go out there. You don't be, empowerment does not be stowed on you. Empowerment is not given to you. Empowerment is generated. You generate empowerment.

  [00:57:33] Jude Schweppe: Yeah, now it's our turn to say what our next revolution needs to be.

  [00:57:38] Abby Havermann: Right. And we can't blame anybody else. We can't blame anybody else. It's, it's not, it's not their problem anymore. No one, we're not, we're not being told what to do anymore. We are doing it because we've memorized that and 'cause we think we're less worthy if we don't.

  [00:57:56] Gabe Ratliff: Mic drop. I think

  [00:57:59] Abby Havermann: Thank you guys so much. Yeah,

  [00:58:01] Gabe Ratliff: so much, Abby. Have a great one.

  [00:58:03] Jude Schweppe: Pleasure.

  [00:58:04] Abby Havermann: you too. Okay. Bye-bye.

  [00:58:06] Jude Schweppe: And that brings us to the end of another episode of The Artful Experience,

  [00:58:15] Gabe Ratliff: whether you're a first time listener or a diehard fan. We want to thank you for being here.

  [00:58:20] Jude Schweppe: We hope you enjoyed today's show and got loads of value from the conversation.

  [00:58:25] Gabe Ratliff: And hey, if you're itching for more, don't worry. You can find all the juicy links in show notes for this episode at theartful.co.

  [00:58:33] Jude Schweppe: But before you go, we have a little favor to ask If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcast fix. And do tune in for our next episode.

  [00:58:45] Gabe Ratliff: Your support means the world to us, and it helps us reach even more amazing artful entrepreneurs out there like you.

  [00:58:53] Jude Schweppe: Thanks again for joining us. We appreciate every single one of you.

  [00:58:57] Gabe Ratliff: Until next time, keep unleashing your creative genius and stay artful.