046: Joel Pilger - Helping ambitious studios become industry leaders
Consultant and partner at RevThink shares advice for artists and creative firms
Joel Pilger helps great creatives run great creative companies. As consultant and partner at RevThink, he advises hundreds of creative firms – studios, agencies, and production companies – based in 24 countries around the world.
In addition to his work as a consultant, Joel fosters an elite community of creative entrepreneurs. He hosts the RevThinking Podcast as well as Qohort dinner gatherings of elite owners in New York, Los Angeles, and London.
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TRANSCRIPT
046: Joel Pilger - Helping ambitious studios become industry leaders
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[00:00:00] Joel Pilger: there is an oversupply of everything. Every service, every creative ability capability thing that you have to offer, I've got a hundred. And so what that means is there's a need and an opportunity to get really clear about your why and let your, why your purpose, your mission, your calling, not only drive you forward, but also position you out in the world so that people understand who the heck are you and why should I care? Why should I work with you? Why should I engage with you?
[00:00:43] Gabe Ratliff: Welcome to artful the community committed to championing artists and creative misfits from all walks of life. This show gives you an insider's [00:01:00] look into the real scrappy lives of artists. Creating with purpose, including interviews with beat boxers, graffiti writers, DJs chefs, photographers. designs, illustrators filmmakers and music artists from around the globe, as well as insights and inspiration from yours. Truly I'm Gabe Ratliff an award-winning artist, coach, entrepreneur, and fellow misfit. All right, let's do this.
[00:01:34] Gabe Ratliff: Joel, thank you so much for being here, brother. I am so excited to have you on the show, man.
[00:01:40] Joel Pilger: It's going to be here with you, Mr. Gabe, happy to be on the show. Finally. Thanks for being patient with all of my scheduling craziness.
[00:01:47] Gabe Ratliff: No worries, brother. So I thought we'd start off with,, what's on your mind these days. Where are you at?
[00:01:56] Joel Pilger: Wow. What's on my mind. Well I could go in a [00:02:00] variety of directions, I guess I'll start with this, that we're still in the midst of this thing called a pandemic. And we're starting to realize that this thing is it's just with us. It is just here and it will be somewhat indefinitely and. I think there's this notion of grieving.
[00:02:23] Joel Pilger: There's a process of grieving that we're all going through. And whether you believe in the four stages of grief or the five stages of grief for the six stages, we're all somewhere around this, coming to acceptance with this. And then the question becomes now what, like, where do we go from here? I've finally gotten through the denial phase and the anger and all these other things.
[00:02:49] Joel Pilger: For me, that means, I am asking that of course of myself personally and how that affects my work and my life and the people that I [00:03:00] love and care about, but also my tribe. And that's, this is the community of creative entrepreneurs that are these business owners, that run. Studios and production companies and so forth.
[00:03:12] Joel Pilger: And these are people that I just care very deeply about and want to make sure that they're safe and they're secure. And that they're moving forward and they're thriving despite where we are with this pandemic.
[00:03:23] Gabe Ratliff: what are you saying to to them right now? Cause there's the personal side of this and also with so many of us as creatives, I would like to say all of us we're connected to the world, we mirror it back through story and art.
[00:03:38] Joel Pilger: First off I try to listen because everyone's in a different place with it, because what I've noticed is there's about a third of creative firms out there that have gotten clobbered. And of course, I want to listen to those owners and just to hear them and let them know that, yes, I hear you. I [00:04:00] see you. I feel what you feel. I've been there before. I got through it. You're going to get through it, right? There's that? There's about a third of businesses that are being disrupted, but they're stable, you know, the amount of work and so forth. Hasn't been super disruptive. But they're probably changing the nature of work. And so that's difficult. And then here's the somewhat ironic is. The other third are the ones who are actually doing great business wise. Okay. Meaning yes, they're being disrupted, but they have more work. They have more clients, they have more opportunities because of the pandemic. And you don't hear many of those owners speaking about that because they don't want to appear insensitive or like my business is doing great. We're crushing it. We have a record quarter or a record year. But they also are wondering, well, when, when does the other shoe fall? How long is this going to last? Right. [00:05:00] There's so much uncertainty. and some of those people are struggling with overwork because they feel like, well, I got to make hay while the sun shines, because three months from now, six months from now, it's all going to catch up to me and I'm going to get clobbered just like everybody else.
[00:05:15] Joel Pilger: So when I'm first doing is hopefully listening. And then when. Saying in general is this is definitely sending in this is a season or an era of our lives and of life on the planet. As we know it, it's not just a phase like we all fought, right. Oh, it's going to be six months. And then things will kind of get back to normal. And then that's now turning into a year and it's now turning into two years and no one really knows. But I'm saying don't wait, live and like figure out what it means to live your best life and that of your business and your team and your [00:06:00] community live that best life. Now, despite the things that we miss and that we're grieving.
[00:06:07] Gabe Ratliff: Here, here, that's one of the things I've definitely recognized and have been helping to promote. On the show. And just with myself, is this reflection that we've been getting on a personal level, but how that's showing up in how people are pivoting with their businesses or with what. They're doing, and even recognizing what's important to them. And like you said, living your best life, as opposed to just being in denial, and just like holding on with a thread and not actually accepting and acknowledging like, okay, this is not going to be a phase. this is actually we're in it for a minute. So let's, let's think about it.
[00:06:51] Joel Pilger: Yeah. I think you make an interesting point that maybe it's worth emphasizing about creative people and about artists.[00:07:00] And that point, being that we do more than other people tend to open ourselves up to other people and experiences and the world. So we tend to be more empathic. And I know that sounds like I'm giving myself a compliment or something, but I'm really, it's really more of an observation. And by that, the reason I raised that point is I do find with creative people, they tend to be more sensitive and they will align themselves with people and experiences or events and things going on in the world. Because of course they use that as inspiration for their art, for their work. Well, when you go through a really tough time, like we've gone through, I think there's the potential for, it really gets you down because whether it's, , politics, economics, whatever, you're, you're watching in the news. , there's just a lot [00:08:00] of challenge and struggle and some darkness out there that I think the artists and the creatives might be dealing with and processing perhaps on a deeper level than other people.
[00:08:13] Gabe Ratliff: Agreed. The other thing is the actual physiological response, right? We're also in this fight or flight, period for an extended amount of time
[00:08:25] Joel Pilger: When you start to lose control. That sense of control, meaning there's all these world events that are affecting us. It's what I call feeling that earth shifting beneath your feet, but you're not quite sure is that tremor is just a train going by, right? Is the earth about to split open and swallow me whole, you realize there's a value in understanding what are the things that I can control and not obsess over the things that I thought I could control. And that's where you come back to, what you and I had mentioned earlier before the podcast, this [00:09:00] minimalism and this essential ism, and you realize, Hey, I need a safe place. , I need to be able to control my bubble of who's coming in and out of my sphere. And then things like take care of my health and get enough sleep and eat. Right. In a way, I think that's been a healthy return to some fundamental characteristics of what it means to be a good human. So again, I'm an optimist, I'm always looking for silver linings. So, , hopefully no one takes that as me being glib.
[00:09:33] Gabe Ratliff: agreed. I'm total optimists. And I feel like this has been what I've been calling an awakening, for many of us, at least in this arena of creatives a lot of the recent conversations I've had have been about that. It's been this awakening for us, tapping into things that weren't even necessarily a direction you want it to go. How does this going to affect art?
[00:09:57] Joel Pilger: So interesting. I mean, there's so many questions [00:10:00] and we're noticing some of the patterns, but there's still so many that we haven't yet identified, what I've noticed and I've been sharing with with owners is this idea that one, the virus in its early stages revealed our weaknesses. So we started to discover where creative firms were weak and it was in some fundamental things like, wow, they really don't have enough projects, meaning sales going very far out into the future. They don't have savings. They don't have a, , a handle on their finances and things like that. This is again very businessy stuff. But then we also noticed that COVID has accelerated the future. Right? All of these trends that were slowly happening, they just got pushed to the forefront right now. So things like working remotely and, , some old ways of doing business and communicating and, , traveling and connecting and building relationships. Those things that were slowly dying off now, they're just dead. Like when you don't get on airplanes to go conduct a [00:11:00] meeting anymore it's over. That acceleration just think of any trends. That has been happening for the over the past five or 10 years and say, you know what, it's probably accelerating and going 10 times faster now because of the pandemic, that gives some people a sense of, oh, okay. It's not so much that things are different. It's the changes that were already happening now just got accelerated rapid fire right now. And that sometimes helps people process where things might go because they can look at their situation and say, , okay. Now I see what's happening.
[00:11:41] Gabe Ratliff: When you're looking at the landscape moving forward, . And we're not looking back, how are you navigating that with creatives and creative firms when you're speaking to them about what's ahead
[00:11:54] Joel Pilger: There's a certain return to fundamentals that invariably happens. And this is typical, right?[00:12:00] when the world goes to war or any calamity happens when you go back to basics. And this is almost like that Maslow's hierarchy of need for those of us that studied this. And so psychology one-on-one . That you're not so concerned with self-actualization instead you're, you're further down on that hierarchy of needs, meaning things like safety and security and food and water and shelter, those kinds of basics. So that's one and that's natural. , you find out real quick in a pandemic, thinking of three little pigs, if your house was made of straw, or if it was what was the middle pig was a wood, I don't remember sticks or something. And if your house made a brick, you find out, okay, great, good for me. Most people discover, wow, here's where we're weak. We've got to shore things up. We've got to strengthen how we do business in the fundamentals in terms of the trends going forward. I think one thing that. It's just coming to my mind among, among [00:13:00] several is now is the time to no longer lean on some of the old approaches. And by that, I mean, we provide a service and people in our town or city, whatever need this service. So they come to us and we, whatever we design, we brand, we message, , we craft whatever that thing is, , those businesses are going to really struggle because in this new world order, there is an oversupply of everything. Every service, every creative ability capability thing that you have to offer, I've got a hundred. And so what that means is there's a need and an opportunity to get really [00:14:00] clear about your why and let your, why your purpose, your mission, your calling, not only drive you forward, but also position you out in the world so that people understand who the heck are you and why should I care? Why should I work with you? Why should I engage with you? The companies that aren't able to do that I think are really going to be struggling because they're not in a place where they can just say, well, I'll just hop on a plane and take a meeting. And because I'm such a nice person, and I know how to, slap backs and kiss babies and whatever the phrase you want to use, that's just not going to work. That's not there. And what I'm seeing is, a lot of my clients and owners out there that I'm working with is the ones that had done the hard work of picking a narrow lane and positioning [00:15:00] themselves very clearly in the marketplace are really reaping the benefits of that right now, because they're the ones that when people are struggling for, I've got to solve this problem. I'm not sure what to do, who to call. Oh yeah. I remember those folks. It's very clear. It's very obvious in their mind, they are the experts. They're the people that can solve this problem. I'm going to reach out. And then there's a hundred companies that are standing there saying, why didn't we get the call? And unfortunately, the call is not coming. It's time to get serious about who you are, what you do and making that crystal clear out in the world.
[00:15:44] Gabe Ratliff: What do you say to that company that comes to you and says, how do we leverage where we've been going with getting more niche , and in a focused lane, how do we do that?
[00:15:57] Joel Pilger: What's the old expression. The first [00:16:00] step in fixing a problem is recognizing that you have one. you know, If you're struggling to stand out and break through to those clients or patrons at that next level, and you're realizing it's getting harder. Or maybe it's seemed almost impossible right now. And you want to blame the pandemic oh. Business to slow down, et cetera. Well, maybe not. I would just submit, there may be a deeper problem. So let's say you have that problem. You're too broad. You're too generalist, I would say there's something that lies beneath a well positioned firm in that, that the creative company that really stands out and has a clear identity and message about who they are and what they do. The thing that's beneath, that is what I call the genius of the owner or the leadership team. And in some cases, what is the thing that drives you [00:17:00] and that you love doing? It brings you boundless energy and when you do that thing, incredible results show. I work with owners to help them get clear about that, but that's the concept. And as they get clear about that, it's amazing how much they start realizing. Oh right. I've been majoring in the minors over here with this stuff. Maybe this thing that my company is doing really isn't part of our core and where we can be great. We've been dabbling. We've been messing around with it. We've been desperate and just hungry for money or whatever, trying to keep somebody happy that is an important client or something. There's a, I think a refocusing of where you can truly be great. And then moving forward with now there's a process we go through to get really clear about our positioning and that is. That's a [00:18:00] whole nother thing we can dive into, how that works, but in effect, it's the basement of the building, right? The, the bottom foundation is really your genius as a creative, as a person, right? Cause this goes beyond business. Who are you as a human being. And then it finds its expression in your business as you come up with that positioning in that language and messaging.
[00:18:24] Gabe Ratliff: This has been a big conversation for me, because of this year it's been this big reevaluation of , who am I, how am I showing up? How do I look at the goals that I, have been setting for myself and that I've been working towards and now under this new lens that we're living in how do I continue to do that, and live my best life. , keeping in mind that being in a creative business, I need to be even more intentional about how I'm [00:19:00] languaging, what I do and why I do it. And who am I speaking to? And so I think this is a really big question to, to dive into so if you want to keep going, please do.
[00:19:10] Joel Pilger: sure. First, let me just acknowledge. There's a lot of fear and anxiety around this. As we talk about it, because believe me, I spent 20 years running impossible pictures, and so I was on this very journey and there is no ultimate destination, right? It's just this process of refining and refining and refining, but the fear is well, if I narrow, then I'm turning away all this opportunity. And so creative people get real panicky about, well, yeah, I know I should specialize so that people really understand and know what box to put me in. But on the other hand, I don't want to say no to all this opportunity out there because I got to eat and I got to pay my bills. And this is where a lot of people get [00:20:00] stuck for many, many years. I can obviously give you any number of examples of great artists and great talent who have done the opposite, but somehow we still hold on to this fear if I narrow and focus and so forth, I'm going to miss out. And I understand that fear. All I can tell you is. I don't know if it's today. I don't know if it's tomorrow. I don't know if it's next year or next decade, but this is your journey and the sooner you own it and step into it, the sooner you position yourself for what you really want. And that is to, produce great work that makes an impact on your client or your patron or your tribe, your community, the world, whatever that thing is. There is going to be a certain risk that you take as you step forward. [00:21:00] And I'm here to reassure, I think is part of what I can say is I can give people a sense of here's how not to do it. Here's how to do it as you step forward on that journey. , so I think that's perhaps part of what I can offer is that encouragement of, Hey, I get the fear and if you do it wrong, yes, there could be Some very scary risks that it might not go well. But on the other hand, I've got plenty of, advice and there is a method and there's a way to move forward on that journey.
[00:21:31] Gabe Ratliff: Why do creatives get stuck and others you know, they go on to greatness. You call it the genius gap. Can you explain what that means , and why that happens?
[00:21:41] Joel Pilger: There's a common pattern out there. And I experienced this myself and I've seen it many, many times and the pattern simply goes like this, let's say you're a creative person. And you say, all right, I'm going to go out on my own and start my own thing. Maybe you're freelancing for a while. Maybe you start your own shop and off you go. And [00:22:00] what happens is you dream of I'm going to do all this great work and I'm going to be free to work with the kind of clients I want to work with and do the kind of work that I wanted to do. And as I do that the money is going to show up and it's just going to be great. It's called just focusing on. Producing great work and the rest will take care of itself. Well, that's very far from the reality that plays out because after a few years where most of these people find themselves is overwhelmed because running a business, there's these seven areas, we call them the seven ingredients, at rev think at my consultancy and these seven areas are not trivial. Okay. So there are things like marketing and sales and production and finance, entrepreneurship, operations. Okay. And creative. So guess what? That whole thing that you started off doing creative, the creative ingredient is one of seven [00:23:00] areas. It takes to run a business. Just one. So if you're a great creative, awesome. I love that about you. , but you got six other areas. You're going to have to gain an understanding at some level of mastery in order for you to. Actually succeed over the long-term because I would submit if you're not any good at sales, are you going to be in business very long? Probably not finance, right? Like if you can't balance your books and pay your taxes, you're probably not going to be in business very long. So those are some examples. What happens is that the natural human response to all of this is we just take it all on. And what we ended up doing is what I mentioned earlier. We major in the minors. So you'll have an owner that is trying to kind of learn QuickBooks and dabble in bookkeeping. And then you have like figuring out how to do payroll and then, try and file my own taxes. And try and install the server myself [00:24:00] and I'll wire this all and so forth. And this was all me. So just to be fair, I'm criticizing myself here. And what happens is this becomes the central obstacle to our succeeding further because there's this ceiling of complexity that we bump up against. And here we are again, right? This essential ism in this minimalism that we start to have this nagging sense is out there for us. , the other obstacle is creatives are generally brilliant and they're awesome. And they're great. , they're dynamic and they find some success. You land a client or two or three or 10, and you start making some decent money. And you're like, Hey, this is working. So when I meet one of these owners that several years later is super overwhelmed and stressed out. And I say, you know, your problem is you actually need to grow. They look at me like I'm absolutely nuts because they think there's no way I could take on [00:25:00] one more. Project, one more client, one more account, one more employee. I'm so maxed out. And when I tell them is, your past success is actually your obstacle to your future growth because you think what got me here is going to get me there, but it's actually, there's actually this letting go process. This is the genius gap is that as you get clear about your genius and you start to focus on it, you're going to let go of bookkeeping and let go of installing the server and let go of hiring whatever those things are that are not your genius. You're going to let go of them, even though that's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying, but this is your journey. If you're a creative entrepreneur, this is your journey, focus more and more and more and more of your time and energy on those things that you're great at and delegate everything else. And this is really where I see creatives. Flourish and [00:26:00] really grow and really reached a new level of simplicity they usually have two or three employees. And then all of a sudden they gain this insight and they realize, wow, my setting a much higher, a much more ambitious goal is what's going to force me to find a new level of simplicity. It forces me, it's like a mind trick that you play in yourself. That if I could run my business at a completely different level what would be required? And you realize, oh, I'd have to let go of all this crap that I'm messing with on a daily basis is if all I was going to do is maybe create a direct and sell that's it. Well, guess what? Look out there at the firms you admire and share with your friends. And you're a fan of all the things that they do. That's. Those owners, those leaders that those companies are doing, they're very, very focused.[00:27:00]
[00:27:01] Gabe Ratliff: Yeah. I remember when I had that, that aha moment because the accounting, the QuickBooks that when I learned real quick, I was like, Nope, sorry, I'm not going to go there. I'm just not,
[00:27:16] Joel Pilger: That's common. That's usually the first one. That's like a no-brainer.
[00:27:21] Gabe Ratliff: When I first started bringing on someone and, and shifted to that leadership, creative director role, I remember leaving that technician spot and being like, but wait a second this has been doing really well for me. and like, why would I? and I kept re being resistant to it And being resistant. Then I tried it I went through the process. I found someone great. We still work together. He's awesome. I've been able to be a mentor to him. He's now being a mentor to other creatives. It's amazing. It's had so many layers of [00:28:00] fulfillment and I remember when I first did it, I was like, ah, I don't know. I don't know. And I went through a couple of months of training. That transitional period was like, everything was fine.
[00:28:14] Joel Pilger: It's not a panacea, right? It's it can be messy. And that's just the nature of human relationships, here's what I'm hearing in your story. And I like it is that when you delegate something that you suck at doing, maybe you're just decent. Maybe you're even pretty good at it. But when you delegate that to somebody who has that skill, that ability as their genius, now, something entirely new becomes possible because you having a killer bookkeeper, accountant, CPA, whatever that resource is. They're going to do things in that area of your business that you would never do because you're not capable. [00:29:00] And guess what, when you become a million dollar, 2 million, five, $10 million a year business, do you think that becomes a bit more important? Right. Do you think that in enables an in in, in somehow empowers you to grow and evolve in ways that you might not have had you held on to that little thing called, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna run my own books. I don't trust anybody to, to count the money and send out the invoices and all that sort of stuff.
[00:29:30] Gabe Ratliff: It was a beautiful experience. I, remember one of the most recent, big commercial shoots, as it always happens, you get into the shoot and there's always the chaos you have to deal. But the team was so strong And, everybody had such a blast. and I knew I put the right people together , everybody was in the right place, seeing the cogs be so fluid and everybody just [00:30:00] be able to live in their space And just own it. And the trust factor was beautiful. and I, remember we got to the end and I was so proud of Alex because he stepped up as the lead photographer and he just took it and ran with it. And I'm so proud of him and it just elevated him into this space. And he's been That way ever since and I remember we got to the end of the shoot and everybody was like, why are we going to do this? When are we going to do this again? And they were just so excited to bring the team back together. . Because it was like you said, it became something that you couldn't even imagine. And the client was so excited , the photos were beautiful so good.
[00:30:41] Joel Pilger: What you're describing is what some would call the Hollywood production model, where rather than having a team, a fixed team of say employees or staff or something that there's this very dynamic model, where you bring in the experts that you need, the freelancers, your staff, whatever, it's this [00:31:00] mixture that always solves each and every problem and unique challenge. In its own way. It is a beautiful model because I think when people work on a live action shoot and all the different departments are each working in their own genius, the director is doing his or her thing, the DP, the line producer, art department, styling casting, all those different departments, right? Even craft services and the gaffers and grips and all those kinds of things. When you see that, the way that system, it just hums. And it's interesting how independent yet interdependent those departments are as well, because there's really not anyone marching around bossing everybody around. Everybody kind of knows their job and they're focused on their department being at the top of its game. And there is an absolute magic that shows. [00:32:00] When you see that happen and you can step back afterwards and say, wow, if we had not hired that stylist, we wouldn't have that right there. And you're pointing at it . If we had not hired that cinematographer, if, oh my gosh, if the casting agent hadn't found that actor, think about where we would be and you just go on down the line and then you realize, okay, well this is like a chain and the chain is only as strong as its weakest link. But if every Lincoln in that chain is operating in its genius, you're going to end up with something incredibly powerful. So now I just submit that's the creative department of your business. Every creative role. Now ask yourself what about all the other roles that it takes to run a business? What if all of those areas were similarly delegated to people who possess those skills as their genius? What's now possible? What if you had somebody whose genius was sales and doing all that business development [00:33:00] or marketing and creating all that awareness and all of that exposure
[00:33:04] Gabe Ratliff: yeah. And that's a tough one right? especially now, , you're looking at how do I keep my expenses low to weather this storm, that looks to be a longer storm. There's that sense of well, I'll take it, the sales, the project management, the admin, all of those things but it really just gets in your way to continue to grow and thrive.
[00:33:29] Joel Pilger: Maybe, right. I'll even play our own devil's advocate here because you're right. Sometimes there is a season where you have to say to yourself, I got to pull myself up by my own bootstraps here. I got to let go of some expenses and take those things on myself. I got, I work nights. I got to work weekends because times are tight need. I totally get that. And I absolutely respect that. The, thing that I would ask to balance that is once you get clear about your [00:34:00] genius, I would invite everyone to ask the question. If I was in a place where I could focus on doing these two or three things that I love doing that bring me energy. That produce really, really big results. When I do them, what would be possible? Like maybe I'll just put it in brass tacks language here. Maybe plenty of money shows up that I can afford all these various resources I need. Like I can afford the stylist and the dP and the line producer because when I'm directing or when I'm closing that deal, deal, there's so much value I'm creating when I'm in the zone and I'm so doing what I love and I'm so energized and , the ideas are just flowing and the results and the value that I create is just huge. If that's you, then don't let that [00:35:00] season of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. Go on too long, let it just be a season and know that there's more out there for you and don't lose sight of it. Pursue it.
[00:35:12] Gabe Ratliff: If I'm a creative business owner and I'm, , maybe wanting to go. to the next level or, or maybe I I I'm sitting here hearing this right now And I'm saying, wow, I've got, I really do have a lot on my plate. How do we know when to start teasing out other roles and outsourcing those, or look to bring somebody on or whatnot,
[00:35:36] Joel Pilger: The signals that I look for are confusion, misunderstanding, frustration. So my example is if you're not operating inside your genius, let's use you as an example. So here you are bookkeeping. How's that going? If you're there late at night and you're like, dang it, this is taking me so long. [00:36:00] Or I made that mistake again, or I keep procrastinating. Okay. That's a sheer, simple sign that you are not operating in your genius. And you're probably frustrating people around you. There's probably somebody waiting on that invoice or there's somebody waiting for you to pay their bill? What have you? And there's there's frustration. There's misunderstanding. There's confusion. That is the sign. And I would also say this that sometimes the way it comes out is we're having that fourth or fifth or sixth conversation about this, whatever this thing that's annoying us or bothering us. And I'll give you this example. Sometimes it's somebody on your team. That's not operating in their genius. And so you'll have the owner and, the two business partners. Are talking again [00:37:00] about the problem employee? Well, she's just not in the zone. She's not really bringing her a game. I'm not really understanding why she can't get it in gear, whatever that is. You have that conversation one or two or three times that's natural. But if you have it four or five or six times, you get to a point where you just have to say in a working at this point, I don't even care what the problem is. We're not obviously not fixing it. So something's got to give, and that's usually an indication that somebody is not operating in their genius. that would be one signal that I would encourage people to think about and watch out for, because I think we're taught as kids, especially here in the states at an early age. Johnny, you're weak in, in math. You gotta get better at that multiplication table. One of my great coaches, Dan Sullivan, who runs the strategic coach. [00:38:00] He always told me, Joel, don't focus on your weaknesses because all you'll end up with are a lot of strong weaknesses. And when he was trying to say, there was just focused on where you can be great and get rid of everything else. But it's hard for us to let go of those patterns that we were taught as kids in elementary school and so forth. So when we see something's not working, we think, oh, you need to get much better at bookkeeping. You know, go take a class. If you need to go download all those tutorials and get stronger in that area where you're weak, actually not a great strategy. Like if you just suck at doing something, just admit it. And. Find out what it looks like to solve that problem a different way to delegate it to somebody who can crush it that pattern of frustration and this understanding and confusion I think when you see that [00:39:00] pattern you'll know that's your indicator it's time.
[00:39:04] Gabe Ratliff: There's a topic that you talk about that, really spoke to me that I'd love for you to address . How do we pivot from selling creative services to being an expertise in value business?
[00:39:19] Joel Pilger: sure. Wow. Well, how much time do we have? First of all, in my experience, every creative business and owner is on a journey from being a service provider or, , I use the more pejorative term order taker to becoming instead an expert, being a respected leader, guide superstar, rockstar, what have you, , in their field. [00:40:00] And of course, a lot of this corresponds with that positioning , and owning your genius and stepping into your greatness and what you're capable of. But the other thing that I noticed is that a business that is. Stuck in this order, taker mentality is going to command much less of a premium price out in the marketplace. They are going to struggle to stand out. They are going to have many problems, difficulties making a real impact on their clients and their clients' businesses, because they're just following orders. They're just being hired for call it production or for execution, or, someone sitting over your shoulder and saying, Hey, monkey, press this button. Not that button. And you can spend many years running that kind of business and think that you're fine. And then you go through a pandemic or a competitor opens up across the street [00:41:00] who offers all the same services for 5% less, , whatever the disruptor is. It's just a matter of time before you get disrupted. And then you're left wondering, well, what that what's going on here. This is what Blair ends at win without pitching calls the expert practitioner. As you make progress on that path to being an expert, guess what? You move from a place where you, instead of just reacting, taking orders and dealing with it, accepting what the client gives you. Instead, you start to gently push back and say, wow, No, I need, I'm an expert here. I need to understand your true problem so that I can diagnose the problem. I can prescribe a solution, and then we can actually enter into an agreement to do the thing, make the thing, create something, et cetera. And that's where [00:42:00] you gain a lot of respect. You start to gain more freedom and Hey, you charged a lot more money. I mean, this is really where great margins and profits are made is where you are able to engage with clients, solving their craziest gnarliest wildest problems instead of just executing their projects. And there's a whole, there's this whole school of thought of how that's done. And of course, I think it's an exciting, exciting journey that everyone is on once you recognize what's possible. You start to understand why some firms charge 10 times as much as other firms, and you realize why , the clients that go to them to solve those problems. Don't bat an eye at paying those prices, because it was never about the money. It was. [00:43:00] I need somebody that I trust who has absolutely deep expertise in this and is going to completely crush this challenge in a way that only they can do it. That's the dream. There are many steps. Along that journey. I think my dream is, I'm just, I'm trying to nudge everyone. I went through the process in my 20 years of, of trying to make as much progress along that journey as I was able. And I want to see everyone else make that journey as well, because I think until you start making progress on that journey, you're really setting yourself up to be taken advantage of perhaps unwittingly or unknowingly. I don't want to accuse clients of being malicious, but there is a very, very common dynamic I see out there in the marketplace where the order taker firms, these reactive creatives [00:44:00] are merely responding to the clients who sort of stand here on high with their arms crossed and look out at this field of resources. Businesses vendors let's call them and all the vendors are doing this. Pick me, pick me, Ooh, please, please pick me, pick me, pick me. And that is just a terrible position to be in. If you're one of those vendors out there selling your commodity services and trying to stand out. And the only thing you think is, well, if we just do it for a little bit less, they'll pick us. And that is just as we know, race to the bottom.
[00:44:47] Gabe Ratliff: I have that conversation constantly with people in my, group Hangouts or the masterminds. It's a constant conversation about [00:45:00] stepping out of can I ask for more, and not feeling confident in, no, I, I deserve this, I command this because I've earned it. And it's a big problem because creatives also carry a lot of self doubt and perfectionism. And so many things, our inner critic speaks loud. My inner critic's name is Jimmy. I tell Jimmy I got this bruh, , ,
[00:45:31] Joel Pilger: The thing that's unique about the creative. Because often I, I hear many people in other industries say, what, what's your deal? You guys are running businesses, just like everybody else. And I say, not so much, because guess what? In the creative industry, generally the creator identifies with the work, it's an expression of yourself, of your person. [00:46:00] That's very different than, figuring out how to optimize the assembly line in the manufacturing plant. We're giving birth. These are like children to us when we create, even if it's a TV commercial, or a, a rebrand or something, there's something incredibly personal And intimate and. so in that sense, this is where creative entrepreneurs are not like other entrepreneurs who simply find a need in the marketplace and they go out and fill it if I said to you, yeah, there's a need over there, those people over there, and they need somebody to make giant billboards, you would say, well, that's just not me. I don't see myself there. I don't identify with that. I that's not , within my realm of self-expression. So it is very personal and therefore we are giving birth to these babies and then people are saying, no, it is part of the business. We are in the rejection business. [00:47:00] Right. You're going to hear no, at least nine times out of 10, if not 99 times out of a hundred. So in a way. Yeah, it is. It's just a very, it's a very, very real challenge. , and we have to come to a place where we're okay with being in the no business and in the rejection business, but then also know that moving forward, it's identifying, where does my genius lie? How do I get that word out there? How do I identify and connect and build community with those killer clients that are out there that will respect, appreciate pay for this value that I create. And when you find those and you do business with those people, it is immensely gratifying.
[00:47:50] Gabe Ratliff: Yeah. It's a win-win for everybody how does someone who is, hearing this? And they're like, oh man, you're right, Joel, I need to do [00:48:00] this. How do they take that first step and make that. And step out of that really scary place and to step into a role as an expert
[00:48:10] Joel Pilger: I'm gonna throw out a rather controversial strategy. I'll call it.
[00:48:15] Gabe Ratliff: Ooh.
[00:48:15] Joel Pilger: And it goes like this, raise your prices and people hearing that are kind of like. say what, okay. But here's what I know when you raise your prices, it's not an end in and of itself, right? Your goal isn't to make more money. However, psychologically, this is a game you can play with your brain. When you raise your prices, this is what I call charge. Like you're the best. So you have to be the best. And, this was a game I played with myself many times [00:49:00] and I've seen a lot of my clients apply it. What happens is when you look out into the world and you say, , there are people that have gone before me on this path, right? There's this incredible photographer over there. Here's this amazing videographer or cinematographer, or something? What, what do you think they charge? I bet you have a, at least an inkling of what kind of fees that person commands. If you've been in the space for awhile, you've been around, you've talked to people and so forth. So what's preventing you from charging what they're charging and guess what happens all these little buzzers start going off in your head, right? Like, oh, well my clients can afford that. Well, I don't get budgets like that. Well, in my small town, I'm not in New York, I'm not in LA. Like all these little excuses start rolling out and I think that's normal and healthy, but you're also creating yourself a to-do list. What are all those obstacles and how many of those [00:50:00] are myths? That I've believed, maybe lies that I'm even telling myself so that I can sleep at night and tell myself, well, that was never possible. So challenge those, ask yourself, what if that's not true? Who told me that? Where did I pick that up? What evidence do I have to back that up? And the other thing that happens when I say to you charge, like you're the best. So you have to be the best is you'll be amazed. I had one client who went through my jumpstart accelerator. And when we got to this point in the exercise, he shared with the group of about, I think, a dozen owners that were going through the class and he said, Hey, I, I just started a conversation with this new client. They were some sort of an industrial. Brand or something and they want to do a, a commercial or a short [00:51:00] brand film or something. And he said, but the biggest project we've ever done I think is $15,000, but he had this sense that it could this need, or this opportunity could be even larger. And so I coached him through the process of how to really understand the need and then ask himself, what would the big boys charge, meaning you're looking at your greatest competitor out there, what would they charge for this? And he said, well, maybe 40 or $50,000. And I said, okay, put an option in front of them. That's that? Because if I gave you 40 or $50,000, could you produce a great spot for them? And he was like, oh hell yes. I said, okay, great. Well guess what, tell me, how would you do that? And guess what happens? His mind starts to open up to all of the possibilities, the things that he could do for this client, the way that he could solve the problem, all the value, the things that he can do that the client could never do [00:52:00] start to become possible because his imagination has been unleashed simply by raising his price. So then when he goes to that client and says, Hey, here's what I can do for you. The client is like, tell me more. Here's the best part of the story. When he came up with his solution, that was say 40 or $50,000, I challenged him and said, why is it only for. your. He said, I don't know. I said, what would it take to produce the coolest solution that still solves the problem? And he said probably $90,000. I said, okay, let's figure that out. What would a $90,000 solution look like? He comes back about a week later and he says, that's the one they bought. let's Rewind that whole story and played out the way most creatives, most business owners would say we do 10 to $15,000 projects. Here's the [00:53:00] solution we have for you because this is what we do. And the client would have probably said. Okay. I'm sure. I'm not sure about this. This seems really inexpensive. I'm losing confidence. You don't seem like the expert. I thought you were, or they say, sure, do the project, but now you're our order taker. And we're just going to tell you to do this and go there and do that because the client is really solving the problem at that point, you're just executing. So instead when he puts this $90,000 thing out there and the client says, wow, why in the world? But it costs that much. And he says, because this is what we're going to go do. And this is the result that's going to show up. And this is the thing that's going to now be possible for you and your brand and your shareholders and your audience and yada yada, yada, yada, that client goes, I didn't even know that was possible. Let me go find that money because that sounds awesome. And then do you think when he comes back, he says, okay, [00:54:00] Mr vendor. Now you're going to do this and you're going to do that. And you're like, no, that in that transition, my client, the guy that running the production company, repositioned himself as the guide, as the expert in that relationship. So now the client is saying, because you're charging me more, I will trust you more. I will let you lead me and guide me because why would I get in the way of the expert? Let's let these people do what they do and show us what's possible.
[00:54:37] Gabe Ratliff: I love that reference to that expansion, because that really is a beautiful feeling.
[00:54:44] Joel Pilger: It's part of what every creative has. I call it your privilege, your prerogative as a creative entrepreneur is to take your clients to places they did not know they could go. And this is such an [00:55:00] incredible power. Once you realize this power that you have you start saying, well, who can I share this power with? Who will appreciate it and use it and benefit from it. And those are the people you want to go do business with.
[00:55:17] Gabe Ratliff: So let me ask you This Joel, what question haven't I asked you that you wished I had,
[00:55:22] Joel Pilger: you know, What's, Joel's hope and dream for all the creative business owners out there in the world, because you heard it coming out there, right. That to help them recognize that they have this incredible gift and power that the world so desperately needs, what do we need more right now in the world, then creativity and fresh ideas and new approaches and people who can look [00:56:00] past the surface to something deeper and more beautiful or more profound, more impactful, and then go express that thing, go create that thing and invite not only your clients, your community, the world into that thing. That's what I know is possible. That's why I love what I do. Right? Because as the, as this advisor and consultant who comes alongside these business owners, you know, my job is to free them. To do that thing and it takes a good, strong, healthy, vibrant business. It's just a necessary part of the machine. And I know this the best creative businesses out there are great businesses the firms out there producing all this [00:57:00] brilliant creative are not the ones that suck at business, but just happened to be really amazing at producing , this excellent work. Now there's, there's this alignment. those owners, the people running the business are, they're incredibly brilliant at the mundane things like what you and I call boring production and finance and bookkeeping and all these other in sundry things. They're great at that stuff. And that's what enables them to be great at the creative work as well.
[00:57:27] Gabe Ratliff: As we start to wind down here, I want to ask what's lighting you up right now. What's inspiring you. What is keeping that fire of positivity and optimism that is inherent in you? What's keeping that burning?
[00:57:40] Joel Pilger: Philosophically, I think it's a belief in this innate goodness that I find present in most of humanity and that, uh, we do have this incredible ability as humans to, to overcome and solve our problems and so forth. There's that under underlying and fundamental [00:58:00] optimism that I have. But in terms of specifically right now, I think what's firing me up is knowing that everyone has. Taking a hit or been disrupted, right? The cheese has moved. People have gotten shaken up, shaking down, shaking around. And the reason that lights me up is that difficulty in that challenge opens people up to new possibilities. It's the change that we may not want, but maybe it's the change that we need. and so, as I am wrapping my head around how to help all of these different creative businesses, that I am fortunate enough to work with, around the world, I'm excited to see them look into the future and say, you know what? The status quo died [00:59:00] with. COVID. And that's okay, because moving forward, we see how to refocus on our genius. We see how to position to get out there and create a name for ourselves in the world. We know how to build community with our clients and, our tribe. And then ultimately we're going to go produce great work stuff. That's really valuable. That's rewarding to me as the owner, to me and my team, even rewarding and incredibly valuable to my clients. It's going to make a difference in their business. And in some sense, I think as this collective community of creators around the world, we're going to make the world a little bit better place.
[00:59:50] Gabe Ratliff: Here, here. Anything else?
[00:59:57] Joel Pilger: When you start to focus on your genius, you're [01:00:00] going to think, well, why would I charge somebody a lot of money to. do this. I love doing this. I would do this even if I wasn't paid, but guess what? that's inside. That's your genius. That could be the area that you should focus on to you it comes easily to perform at a high level doing that thing, whatever that is. but other people look at that and go, whoa, man, when you do that. You look at it and think, well, yeah, I mean, you know, whatever it's just lighting, it's just art, directing, whatever, you know, it's that thing I do. No, no, no, no. So listen to your peers. and your friends who Marvel when you do that thing And then say, gosh, what if I could do this at the highest level possible and command the price prices that go with that? What would, what might be possible? Maybe I could run an entire company fueled off of me focusing on this. genius and a team around me to support that [01:01:00] and empower it and move it forward. Sounds, sounds like fun to me. a fun ride.
[01:01:07] Gabe Ratliff: So Joel, where can people find you online to connect and learn more about what you're offering to help?
[01:01:14] Joel Pilger: Well, you can certainly Google, my name, Joel Pilger. If you're on Instagram or LinkedIn, it's, the at symbol Joel Pilger, but you can also find me at revthink dot com. That's the consultancy website where myself and my fellow consultants gather to help all these creative business owners. And you'll find out I have a podcast out there called the rev thinking podcast. So, , welcome people to, to dive into that, I think I would, uh, encourage people to start there. there's a lot of other resources for owners and businesses, , in terms of events and upcoming accelerators, like jumpstart and stuff like that. But yeah, that's a good place for folks to.
[01:01:54] Gabe Ratliff: Well, Joel man. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation. I'm so glad We [01:02:00] were finally able to get together and do this.
[01:02:03] Joel Pilger: It's a great conversation. Thanks so much.
[01:02:05] Gabe Ratliff: Well, that's it for this episode, whether this is your first time listening or you're already a fan. Thanks for being here. I hope you enjoy the show. Our links and show notes for this episode can be found at the artful.co/podcast. If you haven't yet. Please subscribe to the show and leave a rating and review on iTunes, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts, if you like what you hear and want to be a guest or know someone that's a good fit. Go to the artful.co/guest. And if you want to leave me a note about an idea or topic for the show, go to the artful.co/speakpipe. Thanks again for listening until next time. Keep being artful.[01:03:00]