Fantasy filmmaker talks about our inner darkness and its role in storytelling

Micah Groenevelt is a filmmaker, business owner, and adventurer. He was homeschooled growing up and his mom taught him HOW to learn rather than WHAT to learn. He’s taken this attitude toward almost every aspect of his life whether it is creative and relational or logistical and practical. He’s incredibly grateful for the life he’s experienced and to know that he has a deep profound purpose driving him every day. 

Premise of The Noble Animal:

War is upon us!  Amos, heir to the throne has been betrothed to the Princess of the rival kingdom threatening his land's sovereignty. On the eve before his wedding, Amos sneaks away from the comforts of his royal castle to be with his one true love, the common born farm maid Elise. She takes him to the enchanted forest to spend their last evening together as lovers, but Amos doesn't yet know the challenges Elise is leading him into. Amos awakens the following morning to tragedy. Left alone, lost, and hunted by a mythic beast, he must find his way home before being swallowed by darkness.

There's a Kickstarter going for this film right now. I’ve backed it myself. I'm hoping you will too! It's got about a week left of the Kickstarter campaign. If this sounds like something you'd like to get behind, then go to theartful.co/nobleanimal

NOTES

• The various things Micah has learned over the years like chain mail, leather crafting, and blacksmithing that has directly supported him in his journey as a fantasy filmmaker which is akin to directors like Guillermo del Toro, Tim Burton, David Fincher, and Denis Villeneuve who are so devout to their craft and the genres they love

• How beneficial it is to use classic Hollywood effects that are practical as well as visual effects and CGI in fantasy films and TV shows

• How integrated our own insecurities and inner darkness is to our art as well as how we interact with each other as collaborators

• The importance of bringing a strong, energizing team together that has the “buy-in” for a passion project that utilizes everyone’s strengths effectively

• How to set yourself up to succeed when working with a team on a long-term project as an introvert

• Micah shares a concept of Carl Jung’s about how directors are akin to “the modern church”

• The amount of work it takes to write fantasy stories due to the number of elements related to the world-building, like characters, language, economics, and politics

• The benefits of journaling and sketching at night as a ritual to help you personally and professionally

• Finding confidence in yourself as you hone your craft and work towards manifesting the things you want to see in the world

• The innovation that is currently happening and will potentially happen within the entertainment industry due to the shift in behavior caused by COVID

• A discussion around physiologically manipulating your audience as a filmmaker with elements like the music score and sound design

• How he thinks about creative projects (and films) like containers filled with liquids where creativity is the liquid and how that translates into the filmmaking process as well as the magic that occurs so often on set when collaborating with like-minded creatives 

• Be honest and create!

LINKS

The Noble Animal (Kickstarter)

Mags Productions

Mags Productions on Facebook

The Noble Animal on Facebook

The Noble Animal on Instagram

TRANSCRIPT

Micah Groenevelt: [00:00:00] I think that's the dance of life is like learning how to get better at riding the wave.  yeah, it's a wave and it's is going to crash. Are you going to be underneath the wave when it crashes or are you going to try and be surfing on top of it or are you going to dive straight into it and take it head on kind of thing like that I think is more valuable and that's why we're making the movie, that's what the movie's message is about. That's why we would take them on this experience is to teach them something that would hold hopefully make your life better. Hopefully help you see that. There's beauty in all things. And that the beauty of darknesses is rich and delicious and can be used in the beauty of light.  I see that the world that we're living in is amazing. It's a miracle it's so bad and so good. And just on a zoomed out perspective. That's insane in the coolest, most insane, beautiful, experimental way that there could possibly be. And so I like to think about it that way and try and create that way and hopefully lead other people to create that way. That would be, I think, better. That's why I think it's worth fighting for. 

[00:00:59] Gabe Ratliff: [00:00:59] Welcome to artful a community committed to championing artists and creative misfits from all walks of life. This show gives you an insider's look into the real scrappy lives of artists. Creating with purpose, including interviews with beat boxers, graffiti writers, DJs chefs, photographers designers. Illustrators filmmakers and music artists from around the globe, as well as insights and inspiration from yours, truly I'm Gabe Ratliff an award winning artist, coach, entrepreneur, and fellow misfit. All right, let's do this.

[00:01:50]War is upon us. Amos heir to the throne has been betrothed to the princess of the rival kingdom, threatening his land sovereignty on the eve before his wedding Amos sneaks away from the comforts of his Royal castle to be with his one. True love. The common born farm maid Elise. She takes him to the enchanted forest to spend their last evening together as lovers, but Amos doesn't yet know the challenges that Elise is leading him into. Amos awakens the following morning to tragedy left alone, lost and hunted by a mythic beast. He must find his way home before being swallowed by darkness.

[00:02:35] Sounds awesome. Doesn't it? That's the premise for The Nobel Animal, a film by Micah Groenevelt .  Micah is a  filmmaker, a business owner, and an adventurer. He was homeschooled growing up and his mom taught him how to learn rather than what to learn. He's taken this attitude toward almost every aspect of his life, whether it is creative and relational, logistical or practical. He says that he's incredibly grateful for the life he's experienced. And to know that he has a deep, profound purpose driving him every day,  we had an absolute blast in this conversation. we talked about all kinds of things from. The various things Micah has learned over the years, like chain mail and leather crafting and blacksmithing that have directly supported him in his journey as a fantasy film maker and how it's very akin to directors like Guillermo Del Toro, Tim Burton, and devotion to their craft and the genres such as fantasy. We talk about how beneficial it is to use classic Hollywood effects that are practical as well as visual effects and CGI, especially in films and TV shows in the fantasy genre, how integrated our own insecurities and inner darkness is to our art as well as how we interact with each other as collaborators, the importance of bringing a strong, energizing team together that has the buy in for a passion project, such as his. That utilizes everyone's strengths .  How to set yourself up to succeed. When working with the team on a longterm project, especially as an introvert, Micah has shares a concept of Carl Jung's about how directors are akin to the modern church. It's fascinating. The amount of work it takes to write fantasy stories. Due to the number of elements related to the world. Building like characters, language, economics, and even politics, the benefits of journaling and sketching at night as a ritual to help you personally and professionally finding confidence in yourself. As you hone your craft and work towards manifesting things you want to see in the world.  We have a discussion around the innovation that is currently happening and will potentially happen within the entertainment industry due to this shift in behavior caused by COVID.  We also have a discussion around physiologically manipulating your audience as a filmmaker with elements like the music score and sound design, such as films like Under the Skin,  micah has shares how he thinks about creative projects and films and how they're like containers filled with liquids, where creativity is the liquid itself and how that translates into the filmmaking process, as well as the magic that occurs so often on set when collaborating with likeminded creatives.  Now, before we get into the episode, I want to let you guys know that there's a Kickstarter going for this film right now. it's got about a week left . So if this sounds like something you'd like to get behind, then you can go to theartful.co/nobelanimal. I just went and backed it. I'm hoping you will too. And without further ado, let's get into this episode with Micah Groenevelt.

[00:05:44]

[00:05:44]Micah. 

[00:05:45] Micah Groenevelt: [00:05:45] How you doing man? Thanks for doing this.

[00:05:47] Gabe Ratliff: [00:05:47] Yeah, man. I'm excited to have you on the show.  I've thoroughly enjoyed the Kickstarter video that you did. I'm like really excited to hear more about it and , especially your journey ,  because this is obviously such a passionate project for you.

[00:06:01]Micah Groenevelt: [00:06:01] Yeah, it's been really cool. I would also love to hear about like how you got ended up starting this podcast. Like it's just came out of nowhere and I kinda just looked it up online seeing what was around and you're came up and it was fun digging on  your website and figuring out what you're into, like the small things that I resonated with smacking siblings with toilet paper rolls that you turned into lightsabers. I mean the wrapping paper rolls and then you like beat them to the point where they become like a Flay, like a whip.  yes, I knew that experience. I was homeschooled. And so I was always thinking and always created. And I was always a little bit of the odd kid out too. And my family, I have four siblings. There's five of us kids. And so it was like, okay, I was right there, smack in the middle. So I was that odd kid that was a little more creative. I would find patterns of things in the walls that I would turn into little stories and. Yeah, I like it. It makes sense where I've got to where I am now, where like my parents, no joke with me. Cause I make fantasy movies now. And they joke because me that, I was born in the wrong era because I was really into chain mail. And so I did like chain mail for a really long time. And then I did leather crafting and then I did blacksmithing as well.

[00:07:04] And so it was like, Looking back. I was like, no, I was born in the perfect era. I was born with just the right amount of skills for all these different things, culminate and come at the perfect time of  all these things I was able to bring together.

[00:07:16] And I think that's A really important part of doing anything that you're passionate about is like nothing in life is a mistake. Like I shouldn't regret anything. I should just use everything as momentum to get to where I want to go. And so what's exciting. And what I feel called to do, like that was really what it comes down to.

[00:07:31]Gabe Ratliff: [00:07:31] I'm a huge fan of Guillermo Del Toro and. One of the things I really love about him , he has an entire house, the bleak house devoted to his stuff, cause his wife was finally like, honey, it's time and stuff.

[00:07:47]he got the bleak house and put all of this stuff in there, like his big  Frankenstein's monster face and  one of the demons from hell boy, my point is just that he is so devoted to his craft, but he's also so devoted to the genres that he loves, and it's always focuses around how the humans are the monsters, not the monsters, and I've resonate so much with that.

[00:08:10] I just think that is so relevant as a reminder to us as humans, but where I wanted to connect that to  what I see with you. Is that it's very similar,  your genre  you've done the work. You've done the chain Malik, you've done the leather work. You've done the blacksmithing.

[00:08:29]you are familiar with what that lifestyle is like. However, you live in a time period where you can tell stories with a camera and a crew  one of the things I love about being in a modern era and seeing fantasy films is they're shot on location, right? Like game of Thrones or Lord of the rings. 

[00:08:51]Micah Groenevelt: [00:08:51] in order to do their location, You have to just do it. there's a huge difference between those log rings movies and then the Hobbit movies. Like you can just feel the difference  The trees are actually blowing and you feel the wind running through your act, your hair, and like you are there, you live it.

[00:09:04]It's kinda what you're pinpointing is like artists who live their art rather than just think about their art and just go put it out somewhere else. Or it's like another person I thought of when you were saying that about Guillermo del Toro is. Tim Burton, how his house is this same sort of thing of yeah.

[00:09:17]these kind of odd guys that they live, the arts that they're doing. Like they are an art project in and of themselves.  my actpr said it so well  I'm correcting it with this guy, Omid Harrison. And he's just one of those guys that you meet where you're like, yeah, this guy's a genius.

[00:09:31]this is a guy who's a genius and nobody knows it yet. And he doesn't even know it yet. And so I'm going to keep that sort of on the secret backburner for him until he discovers that. But he talked about it of life is this sort of exchange between the world that's happening outside of you and the world that's happening inside of you.

[00:09:44] And there's this sort of flow of what is going on inside of me? And then how do I put it out there, but then what do I want out there? Yeah. That fuels back inside. So it's when I sit and I'm working on these costumes or doing set design or any of these different things, I'm taking the exterior life.

[00:09:57] And then allowing it to become internal and then going in and sitting with the script where like I was up in the middle of the night working on the script last night and  I just felt it, and there was feeling of what's going to come to me and how does it just arise?

[00:10:08] And then just something comes up, you can just put it down. And you're like, Oh, I don't know where that came from. But then it was like this weird mix of all these things. Things outside and fantasy is a beautiful sort of genre for it where it's yeah, not a lot of good fantasy is made and fantasy is a fantasy like that.

[00:10:21] That's a big thing with filmmaking me. It's I want to bolster people's imagination, but I loved as a kid was to sit there and imagine what massive world I like to think about what was, what were the elves doing when they had just lunch? what were they, where do they sit and what did they eat?

[00:10:35] And and I can fill in all those different gaps as a kid. And like fantasy is one of the few genres that allows you to go that far. Like Sci-F is another one of those where it's scifi has, I also have big love for sci-fi because it does the same sort of thing. it's fantasy for the future is essentially what it is.

[00:10:48] our imaginations are the only thing limiting us. And then filmmaking is this weird, random art that allows us to be able to. Create something that totally doesn't exist into something that totally does exist. And that to me is still just mind blowing and especially with how new filmmaking is like filmmaking's only been around for over a hundred years now.

[00:11:05] That's two generations, like your great grandparents didn't know the movie. And like they would go to, or maybe be the first person at the carnival where you sit, like it was a carnival presentation where. The first one was like a train that they just filmed. And then it was just run down the tracks and the people who sat there in this carnival watched as this train, came at them and hit through and it passed by the screen.

[00:11:26]And everyone in their seats jumped because they thought there was going to be a train that I'd like to imagine. Yeah, it's not at all realistic, but imagine seeing that for the very first time, like how wondrous that would be, and then to see that come full circle now   we just wrapped up game of Thrones, probably one of the greatest fantasy epics that's ever been put to screen ever.

[00:11:45] And yeah, you can say whatever you like about those last two seasons there's problems, but there's always problems, creativity, but the mere fact that it can exist and that it can be so real and tangible and, Like it has a grit and grime in an authenticity. That's just ah, that's so cool that I can take my imagination, make it real and then reinterpret it back as imagination and then go make something else.

[00:12:04] It's so cool. I love it.

[00:12:06]Gabe Ratliff: [00:12:06] That's another thing I'll speak to Del Toro again. That's one of the things I love about him is that he appreciates the analog, the practical effects, the storytelling , the mythos send the he's done his homework, and you've done your homework. And that's one of the things I really appreciate is that he doesn't lean into the visual effects.

[00:12:27] And that was what really hurt for me watching the Hobbit films. Was because they were so obviously not practical, whereas they worked so hard on Lord of the rings to be just amazing visually. 

[00:12:44]Micah Groenevelt: [00:12:44] the best hybrid is to bring those two things together. Like old Hollywood was all practical. And then we started getting into technology. Because that was a cool thing about the Lord of the rings. The original trilogy was they were inventing technology for that along the way.

[00:12:56] They did not know how they were going to do that. Not know if the cable was going to work, They're like, alright, let's scan this three D model and let's hopefully be able to animate it in a way that looks realistic. And then it was, and then Peter Jackson got so attached to the technology that he just kept running with that.

[00:13:09] And we lost that sort of tangibility. And so it's those best directors will always bring in that hybrid. Christopher Nolan or Denis Villeneuve, these directors who come in and say, Hey, we're going to do everything as much onset as we can. And then we sweetened everything was the effects.

[00:13:22] David Fincher is another one. That's really interesting because he uses it in such subtle ways. Like his movies are not effects having movies, but then if you see that the effects breakdowns, he just does it to give it more atmosphere and like he'll park people's hair with the effects, just to give a little bit better composition to their face.

[00:13:38]  the effects should be. And enhancement there. It's just another filmmaking tool, right?  what is your story? The story matters first and foremost, how you tell that story is up to all the different tools that you have. You have sound, you got music, you got the cinematography, you got the edit, you've got pacing, you've got different sort of storytelling techniques within that.

[00:13:55] You've got performance, you've got the effects. that's the coolest thing about this medium is  as long as you know what the core is, as long as you know what you're getting at, then everything else can come around that it's actually really cool because you talk about. The monster outside of you and then the monster inside of you.

[00:14:09]  the movie we're making about is facing your inner darkness. And so it's really interesting to see my entire team  the darkness in their own lives reflect. I can start seeing the complexes, right? The little insecurities that they have or the things that they get caught up on and the things that I noticed I get caught up on.

[00:14:25] And then I'm like that's the thing. That's the thing that we're trying to address with this movie. And so then I don't care if it's there with your music. I don't care if it's with the sound design, let's confront that. Let's figure out how we can use our processing of our own darkness and how we gain mastery over that as part of the creative.

[00:14:40] And then let's put it all into the movie. And then if we do that properly, there's no way that the movie won't be impacted by that. Like it just, art is a manifestation of how you are. mean, side and it's yeah, if we just. Are able to do that honest, authentic work, then that will lead to a product that we're all really happy with.

[00:14:57] And then a movie that I think people are really hungry for, that they haven't ever seen before. that would be really exciting to me.

[00:15:02] Gabe Ratliff: [00:15:02] Wow. I love that. It's interesting. You brought that up because something for me, I just did a summer camp for creative entrepreneurs and.

[00:15:12] It's been so expansive. , one of my favorite speakers in it, his name's Nick O'Laire. he spoke to your inner critic and part of what you spoke about was naming your inner critic. And I'd heard about that before. But,  it kind of took me back to inside out the Pixar film, and how masterfully that addressed that.

[00:15:38]And all your different emotions. The, they had an actual personification. And I was just thinking, when you were talking about that, about how, since I've named my inner critic, it's been this dialogue that I can have. when that shows up for me, I can have this conversation with him.

[00:15:56] It's a, him, his name's James mommy. I'm like, Hey, Jimmy came up for me earlier this morning and I was like, Whoa. Hey Jimmy. I'm cool, man. I'm good. Good, thanks. I'm good. I'm safe. and I've got this,   as creatives, we go off, right?

[00:16:10] Like we get deep. Okay. Cause that's part of our journey as creating, We're sharing. I love that you get into the stuff. That's why, when I was watching your kickstart video, I was like, Oh, I can't wait to talk to him because you're addressing these things and you're open about it. and I love seeing the scenes where you're talking to the crew and you're having a production meeting and you're sharing this deeper, journey as a human.

[00:16:34] And the human condition and that experience of that. , and you're leaning into that. And like you just said, you like, you're leaning into that with the making of the film and with the people you're interacting with and you're embracing it. It's not this like means to the end.

[00:16:49] It's the means to the means. I just heard that the other day and I was like, Oh man, that's powerful.

[00:16:54] Micah Groenevelt: [00:16:54] thought about that recently, too. It was like, what are the just different ways of saying live in the moment, right? That's essentially what it is. But a good one that I heard was time is the most valuable commodity, but time rushed is time poorly spent. And so  what is life like?

[00:17:10] What would, when I wake up in the day, how can I live a meaningful day to day? How is this what we're doing right now? The thing that I'm doing. And I love it with my entire heart. that's what all this pandemic was for me was like facing my mortality. Cause I'm very existential that way. And then also realizing What do I want to do with my days?

[00:17:26]yeah. I am like brazenly, honest with people to the point where it's a strength and a flaw, I oftentimes will hurt people unintentionally with that brazen honesty, but I realized I'm like, this is how I am. This is who I am. And I would rather be honest and true to myself and say that and deal with the consequences and learn and grow from those consequences than to be putting on.

[00:17:47] A mask. there's something really interesting about how everyone right now is wearing these masks and we have to wear these masks as this sort of thing that allows us to have one barrier of separation. And I'm like, could I live a life that doesn't have that barrier of separation that would scare the hell out of me.

[00:18:01]That would be terrified to be able to be my full, honest, authentic self, because that's crazy person, but also at the same time. Yeah. We're all crazy people and there's no, one's willing to admit it. And then if I'm willing to take that charge and lead that on, then. I found that's when life is worth living again, too, where it's yeah, no, that is doable and it's sustainable.

[00:18:19] And nobody does know what we're doing here. So you might as well live to the fullest extent that you can. And I was like, yeah, , let's encourage that. Let's bring that along. Let's find out the people who want to do that and then let's go and do it.

[00:18:30] Gabe Ratliff: [00:18:30] Yeah, what that brought up for me, I was just writing down, you have this wonderful, it's like this formula you're developing right.

[00:18:39] Of not rushing. I don't want to call it a formula to meaning formulaic. it's like creating this like a system. Yeah. It's like a system, like a framework because in the, and I'm talking core foundation here, right? Like in the setting up of let's live our best lives. 

[00:18:58]let's not rush. And so in that. You're creating the space. I've been into this thing about creating the capacity. I was speaking the other day about, when you ask these questions to yourself and you're looking within you create the capacity to answer them,  we're constantly on the hamster wheel.

[00:19:14] And especially with film, right? it's like crazy days, you got first aid, he's yelling at people all day long, right?

[00:19:25] Micah Groenevelt: [00:19:25] Like the campaign right now. And it's yeah. Micah, wake up and do yoga. Like you need to do yoga because slow down and to not think about anything before you do this podcast is going to be a central a, you need to let your mind set. And my mind is just going all the time.

[00:19:39] It's racing, and then it'll compound. And then I never get back to a simple thought of just B. Be a little bit and then you'll think even better and a million studies on how it's just better and healthier to be able to have a balance between the two. But it's so hard, Once you do get in the midst of it. And then I start to feel that. Urgency of, I owe them. I owe them that I must be working all the time. And it's no, Mike, you're doing a disservice to them. You should be taking care of yourself because in order to do the work that you need to do, you need to be able to sustainably do it.

[00:20:09] This is a marathon, not a sprint take care of yourself. that what needs to happen will happen, do it. And you're like, ah, that's so scary.

[00:20:18]Gabe Ratliff: [00:20:18] I love Fincher. I love Nolan. I love Denis Villeneuve, God. I love him so much after I saw,  arrival and prisoners, and then  my favorite film is blade runner. I know it has, people are like, it's flawed and blahbidy blah. And I'm like,

[00:20:33] Micah Groenevelt: [00:20:33] No, that's probably the closest to like a flawless film. You can not like that film because it's a kind of a emotionless film in a lot of ways. That's what they were doing with it. But otherwise that movie is essentially like perfect. As far as construction goes, like there's very few films that I've seen that feel that clean, like honestly, Pixar films are the only thing that come close to being like. so utilized and so efficient and every single thing that it's doing that's a masterclass like that will go down as, I think one of the greats, like I'm glad that sort of took on the torch of the original blade runner and then pushed it forward even farther.

[00:21:03] Gabe Ratliff: [00:21:03] Oh, so good. Oh my God. It's so good. , and the music I, Hans Zimmer is my favorite composer as well.

[00:21:10] So when you like pit him with Phil knew, I was like, okay, sign me up.

[00:21:15] Micah Groenevelt: [00:21:15] And Roger Deakins shooting

[00:21:16] Gabe Ratliff: [00:21:16] I right.

[00:21:17] Micah Groenevelt: [00:21:17] no, the best cinematographer, the best musician and one of the best working directors. Yes. Sign me up. I'm at.

[00:21:23]Gabe Ratliff: [00:21:23] And this is important. This is really important to me. And I think important to cinema and storytelling.  they were so devoted to putting this amazing team together that really believed in this cause just like yours, because it, they were like, we are going to make sure that who we bring on is onboard and  a great example, Harrison Ford had just done the star Wars trilogy, right? the new SQL trilogy. And he felt Han solo as a character would not live this long. Like he, he would not make it this long. This is not in his. DNA is a character.  and who knows better than him.  when he went is asked to also revisit the Deckerd character, he was like, yes, because what they've wrote for this character makes sense. And when I watched it, I was like, Ugh. like, how great is that to like, actually have an arc that like, make sense for your character that you've done for, decades. And I just thought that was like a wonderful example of. Where you can feel something, feel a little forced and it's like, yeah, but we've got to pass the torch and we got to do this. And you're like, do we? And this was a similar passing of the torch. But it was done in a beautiful way.

[00:22:28] Micah Groenevelt: [00:22:28] Yes. I had to learn that one the hard way. Which is I worked on a film and film school that went really well. And I found a really good team there. And then we finished that and then I moved on to the next one and I just assumed that they would all move on to it with me. That's not the case. You have to set people up every single time. You need to give good expectations. You need to have that conversation, Which is what that pitch video was. I have built my entire team with these are the people that I want to be a part of this movie, but then I'm going to sit them down and say, Hey, I'm going to tell you about this movie.

[00:22:58] If you want to be involved in it, I want you to be involved in it, but I'm giving you the opportunity to decide. And if you decide, you gotta begin and if you're going to be in, then you gotta be all in. But also at the same time, that's why we're doing this is because if you don't and you know that you can't, that's totally okay, but I need to know that.

[00:23:13] And then you get everyone on the same page,  that's just the big job of the director of communicating well and. Creating, just being honest, being fully honest and authentic with people at every single different stage of the process of alright, how in are you? Okay, you're willing to do the work, but then you lose passion after three weeks.

[00:23:29] Okay. I need to know that, so then I can know what I can get out of that. All right. you might be better for the onset days where there's a hustle and we only shoot eight days in a row, or are you the sort of no, I'm here for the long run. I created this like fan arts that you, we can help use to promote the campaign.

[00:23:43] And we're going to think about this in a six months kind of term thing. And then you're like, alright, this is a person that maybe I don't even like spending a lot of time with, but at least it's independently motivated. And then you're like, Oh, this person isn't independently motivated, but is really motive when we spend time together.

[00:23:57] So it's like, all right, who do I need to spend all my time with? Who can I spend all my time with? Because I am generally a person who likes to be alone. And so it's like, all right, I'll do my best creativity when I'm alone. But then how do I bring the best out of other people? How do I work on myself so that I can be alone with these other people and still communicate with them in a fully honest way, without it feeling like that feeling where it's just like, all right, goodbye.

[00:24:18] Thank you. You close the door. Oh, okay. Yeah. The guests just left, right? Yes, exactly. How can I stay in the same sort of mode? Nope, we're going to do this. And then. Peace out, man. I'll see you tomorrow. Okay, cool. Now let's move on to the next thing. And then you call that next person up and you're still honest and still clear with them and everyone's different, right?

[00:24:36] Everyone's got their own baggage. That's the part of the learning process too. Hey, you're in. And then you start learning who these people are as a human being and what they need and how you can help guide them through the entire process. Cause that's a big part of it for me is Making this movie is living life, making this movie and I want to be growing and developing.

[00:24:54] I see myself as a person I'm just ordinary.  I have so much shit that I got deal with in my own life. And I'm constantly needing to deal with that and working on that, I am constantly trying to remind myself to stay grounded of yeah, no, get to the very base level Micah, because that's where everyone's starts.

[00:25:10] And then we got to work your way up and then come back down. Cause it's an oscillation between good and bad. 

[00:25:15] And just remembering that everyone, but as a part of the team is doing that as well. We're all these flawed human beings. And then it's just yep. Let's just be clear. Let's be honest. And then let's help each other grow.

[00:25:23] And then let's make something that we're proud of. In the meantime, that I think generates the best environment for creativity.  I was reading  (Carl) Jung last night and there was some something you said about that's what. The modern church is almost where it's like a director creates almost a church around himself.

[00:25:39] And I'm like, that's an interesting idea. I've never thought about it that way, because I think of just churches, the organized religion place, Rather than this is the church of the film, The Nobel Animal church, and what is our sort of attitude and behavior around this type of thing that encourages cultivation.

[00:25:53] And it allows us to grow together and be more creative and I'm like, all right, cool. That's a way that I can think about this that I think is really exciting. And I think I can do.

[00:26:02] Gabe Ratliff: [00:26:02] That's fascinating. I've never heard that from Jung. That's fascinating. 

[00:26:07]Micah Groenevelt: [00:26:07] He's an odd dude. , 

[00:26:08] Gabe Ratliff: [00:26:08] I totally connect with him though that he's come up in   research over the years, and I've seen all these little connections and I'm like, I like that dude. 

[00:26:16] Micah Groenevelt: [00:26:16] That's how I found him too, was just like, just a couple of things. Just kept. Kidding. And then I liked what he would say. And then eventually it was like, I could take the plunge by one of his books and read it and be like, okay, I don't like reading either. And so then it forced me to sit and read something and I'm like, I wouldn't normally read this and being in someone's mind as intelligent and as humble and as brave as a man like that's what I realized people talk about you're only as good as the people you can surround yourself with. And if you can't surround yourself with great people, just because of the situation, then read books because that's the only other way of doing it. that's been the biggest thing. The most important piece of reading for me honestly, is being able to be in the minds of someone. Great.

[00:26:53] Gabe Ratliff: [00:26:53] Yeah. I just heard something really cool. The other day somebody had asked about, I think it was on, Chris Do, I think answered this. They were talking about a mentor.  I found this fascinating, cause it was just a really great  lens to put this on for people.  this person was asking about how do I get a mentor? mentors are. An interesting thing.   I've asked people on the show before, do you have any mentors to speak of? And it's interesting the response because a lot of them say, no,

[00:27:19] Micah Groenevelt: [00:27:19] Yeah. I'm curious to you, did you find one?

[00:27:20] Gabe Ratliff: [00:27:20] I did, I did. I just spoke about him the other day, actually, on an S solo episode, Sean Bell he's head of UX at Amazon now, but he really helped me to thinking about design thinking and research.

[00:27:35] Asking good questions doing the deep work on the front end so that when you get to the creative work, right? It's like what we're talking about. It's just about thinking in these ways and developing methods so that the work has this arc to it, to get you to this great place. And it's not trying to get the cart before the horse. And so this person asked about a mentor, but what he was saying was exactly what you're speaking to. He was talking about how. There are some people that don't even know they've been mentors to people because what people did was  They dove in and just started to really follow their work and just learn the knowledge and the wisdom and experience through their work and their books or whatever it is without even talking to them.

[00:28:22] And that's the same thing with books, right? It's like what you just said. You found these connections too Jung, and then you're like, Hey, take the plunge man. And then you did, and in here we are. And it's actually coming up in your work.

[00:28:33] Micah Groenevelt: [00:28:33] Yes. it's also a weird conundrum where. When someone is like, Oh, I'm really inspired by you. Or you're like a mentor to me. And then you're like, don't use me. there are people way smarter than me, way better than me. Like I'm not even sure on that plateau. Like I'm still just a kid. Who's trying to figure out what he's doing.

[00:28:49]And yet at the same time, I'm like, no, there are those different stages where different people are served different things in their life. I started realizing that with my friends. I was like, I was looking for a friend or honestly, a wife, Who would fit all my different needs. I like, I want to get married.

[00:29:01] I'm a deep, romantic, and I wanted her to fit into every single little box and then I started like realizing what I got from all my friends. And my friends all do different things for me. And it's the collection of all these different friends that allow me to be whole.

[00:29:14] And then a wife, who's going to be no different. She'll fill a deeper, more transcendent hole, I don't need that. Be able to have philosophical conversations with my wife if I do that. Great. That's awesome. But that's not where that needs to be fulfilled. I have my friends and peers and mentors in that category over here.

[00:29:30] And then I also have those sort of fun friends who like to do social things with me over here. And there's the whole swath of your entire kind of. World that you build, the orbit analogy. People talk about it, if you're the sun and then everything orbits around how close are the different orbiting planets.

[00:29:44] But as long as they're all orbiting, then you can have a complete sense. And and then the brightness of your sun can shine as bright as it needs to. And you're like, okay, here we go. This makes a lot of sense.

[00:29:53] Gabe Ratliff: [00:29:53] Yeah. I am married and I found that out with my wife.

[00:29:59]we just celebrated our 12th year anniversary and. Yeah. And it's like when you look back at those things, you think about, it's been about the experiences we've shared together and the journey we've been on together and like the growth we've gotten to see  there's a great film that, Susan Surandon speaks to being a witness for each other.

[00:30:20] And that was actually in our vows, in her vows to me about being a witness for each other. that's actually where it totally comes into play. What you're talking about. we can't always fill those things cause I'm like, I'm super geek. Like anime, B-movie horror, weirdo guy, art house and shit.

[00:30:36]And then she's like just yesterday, I was like, Hey, there's a new transformers out on Netflix. Do you wanna watch it? Like just joking with her? And she's like, no, 

[00:30:43] Micah Groenevelt: [00:30:43] Like,

[00:30:45] but Michael Bay, like it's a bad movie, but Michael Bay. I feel that because it's like, they see you, they witnessed the struggle, right? So the struggle and the hardest things that we go through end up being the things that define us the most. Those are the things that ground us. And when there's some of the witness that, and goes through that with us.

[00:31:03] they talk about it in war , Where it's I went to battle with my brothers. We saw some shit and like they were in it to the point of no, that's my guy. And because they all went to that same level together and they were witnesses for each other. That's what, the time in marriage.

[00:31:17] Is about right. the length of time to be able to go through so many different, hard things in different spectrums. Like sometimes the tiny little hard things. And sometimes they're really deep, significant ones. And to have that person there, seeing all those instill love you through them, no matter what, it's why it's the craziest thing in the world.

[00:31:33]It's Hey, will you love me? No matter how crazy and insane I get. Yes. I'll love you the back like that too. And you're like, Oh, okay. And then that creates that sort of, that. Depth of relationship that allows you to span a lifetime.  There's no divorce that doesn't hurt anyone. That's just because there's a certain type of relationship that can only be found. That's always deep like that. They've seen some shit together and that brings you so close, that brings your soul close to one another. And you can do that with friends, but with a wife it's just so different.

[00:32:02] And also I imagine it's different because you live together. So there's just like the tiny little things on the day to day. Do you still find new things after 12 years on with the day to day, the small things, cause you guys are both changing and evolving with each other. Has that been a really weird process?

[00:32:17]Gabe Ratliff: [00:32:17] yes and no,  cause  it's gradual, right? It's not like you  hit a point and you're like, like the honeymoon, nobody knows what that ends for a couple, some couples that never ends, And I think reconnecting with that is actually what makes a good couple. It was like reconnecting with your honeymoon years and what that was like this experience we've been going through. We were on a, we were actually traveling abroad and my wife was on a sabbatical. She had left a job after 11 years and. being in the workforce for 20. we were like two months into our journey. We're in Sri Lanka and all of a sudden this thing is getting serious and she  checked out.  I hadn't seen her like that, cause she's a type, a hardcore kill bill. Bad-ass Fox force, five Chica,  It was very odd for me to witness that. but then that was where I organically stepped into this place. I was the calm, and I just stayed in this place of you need calm, you need reassurance. We're going to be okay. And we worked it out, got our flight back and got home and we were okay.  those three months, that was a lot of growth because you're constantly together. 

[00:33:29] Micah Groenevelt: [00:33:29] it's like a reset on the relationship where you have to refigure out what it is to be around each other all day, every day.  we have routine and that works. And now all of a sudden we have to refigure out how this thing works. I totally feel that like I am living by myself for the first time in my life too. And during these last three months, I've been wondering that . Imagine these families. And I think that will be one of the really good things that comes from the pandemic is the amount of parents connecting with their kids reconnecting with their parents and families coming closer together and re understanding of what are our family values?

[00:33:57] How do we want to do a family? So that now when we go back out into the world, we can have that to come back to, I feel like that existed. And then it slowly took trickled away. And then we were forced to have it back again. And then we'll see it expand back out and hopefully we'll continue to sort of keep that as a cycle where it keeps looping back in where it's yeah.

[00:34:15] Of all the good things that I'm excited about. It's forcing people to be alone with themselves and their thoughts and face that. And then also  forced to be around other people and do relationship well, in a way that's. Again, the honest and authentic where it's , the ability to be able to sit in a room with someone quietly and do nothing together.

[00:34:34] That is not an underrated skill. That is an amazing thing that not a lot of people have. And that is the thing that I think we should probably know how to do as a species.  that would probably be pretty valuable.

[00:34:44] Gabe Ratliff: [00:34:44] Yeah. that's one of the things that we both really enjoy is just being able to, put on some chill music and just both sit and read. And whether I'm reading a business book or I'm reading a, a graphic novel, which I'm a huge fan of graphic novels. And, again, she's not, she loves fantasy. She reads hardcore fantasy all the time. She has read thousands , Oh my gosh, she finally had to do, I think she started last year, the Kindle unlimited because she reads so much. 

[00:35:13] Micah Groenevelt: [00:35:13] gotta be such a struggle because there's only so many, like really good ones out there too. And once you get through them, you're like, all right, I just love it. So I'll just keep going for it.

[00:35:20] Gabe Ratliff: [00:35:20] Yeah. Or like waiting for their next book.  I can't imagine the pressure that fantasy authors feel like that because it's like they got to keep cranking them out.

[00:35:31]Micah Groenevelt: [00:35:31] I've been writing the script for two years. Two years, and it's a 45 page script, and it's still , keep going, keep finding the detail in the nuance. And it's fantasy is the hardest thing to write well, you've got to first know the politics of the entire world. You got to know the economics of the entire world. You got to have your characters. And then you got to, once you have your entire sort of world built and set up, then you have to Find a story within it.  I found the story first. And then I was constructing things alongside that. And then it's like, how do we incorporate symbol and archetype that we know as human species down to Excalibur days with King Arthur kind of thing. And then bring that in a way that's subtle nuance and never been done before. And then dialogue, like we've had so many conversations about dialogue. We're like, alright, how did they speak in this world? It's do we don't want to one, if one is just like how we're talking now, And if Shakespeare is a five, then let's try to find, try and find like a three and then like abs between two and three pretty regularly. And then that's commonly a note that we'll get,  well, the language is really sophisticated. And I'm like, yes, that's so important. But then you're like, yeah, but also you've got to find that line because Lord of the rings and game of Thrones had sophisticated language too, but still in a way that was really approachable because there's a turn that you can make, where all of a sudden becomes a movie that people can get behind too. I don't even understand what's being said, I don't not even following anymore. And you're like, Oh, that's a fine little detail nuance. And to do all of that as just the script phase, I don't envy writers. I write as a means to be able to make the film where like I had to learn it out of necessity and I'm getting a lot better attitude. it is just so much of one of those things like, yep, this is the more you do it. The better you get at it. And the more you start trusting your own writing too, you start liking what you like. And then you're like, Oh, I really liked this now.  it's just such a headache.  you got to get it right. And like the difference between a good movie and a bad movies, a good script and a bad script. Most of the time, it was like, spend that time. Get it right.

[00:37:18] Gabe Ratliff: [00:37:18] Oh man. And I know when I first started working on the script, I'm working on, it was my first feature script 

[00:37:24]Micah Groenevelt: [00:37:24] you got to 120 pages?

[00:37:26] Gabe Ratliff: [00:37:26] I am at 53 pages now. 

[00:37:31] Micah Groenevelt: [00:37:31] Yeah. That's a huge feat, yes.

[00:37:32] Gabe Ratliff: [00:37:32] I know when I got past the opening sequence that really sets the stage for this story,   this is supernatural horror, right? there are stigmas. Same as with fantasy, there are these stigmas that's why I was so connected with your story.     you see these stories and you're like, I'm so excited to see this . and then they churn it out and you get to the end of it. And you're like, that was such a detriment to the story that could have been told. because there's this need for content now, everybody's just trying to crank it out. And that's why I love what you're talking about. Let's hold up. Let's not rush, let's do this,  with intention and have time to reflect on things and do this deep work  one of the things I just learned recently from Mario Quesada , heartful head empty. When you go into a meeting or  when you're interviewing or you're  having this kind of  collaborative. Experience you go in your heads empty, your heart's full. Like we are right now, just sharing. Connecting and asking a lot of questions and just like getting excited about what the other person is saying, learning about each other and then you leave and your heart's empty and your head's full. You took all this stuff in, you've given all your heart and then you leave and you're like, woo. 

[00:38:46] Micah Groenevelt: [00:38:46] Well, I'm very much that too, where I  process after the event.  I don't process real time. I live real time. And then afterwards it'll happen, we'll wrap this up and they'll be like, how did I do think about it, right? And then I'll figure out what can I have worked on and what could I have Done better or what do I think I excelled at it and then figure out how I can integrate that. And then, so that next time you go part first had empty, right? It's like hurtful. I love that. That's right. 

[00:39:09] Gabe Ratliff: [00:39:09] And it's so easy to remember. That was the thing that I loved about it is it's so easy to remember. I shared it with my wife the other day,  what, a great way to go into any kind of exchange like that.  whether it's a coffee chat,  whether it's an interview, whether it's a podcast, like whatever it is, when you're meeting a cast member, For the first time when you're meeting a crew, remember whatever it is, just go into it, heartful and head empty. Because we generally don't right. seems like you and I both have this like really energy, like we're super energetic. And we're just like, woo. And I love that. , you're my people. you're the kind of person I like to be around. Because we just light each other up. Yep. and we liked each other up. We're like, Oh yeah. I'm like energized by your energy. I don't feel deflated by your energy.

[00:39:51] Micah Groenevelt: [00:39:51] I right. I'm the exact way of yeah, no, I was deflated before we started right. Where I was like, alright, I just get it a little bit of a slow morning, a little bit of rough morning, and now it's yeah, no. I write off of that as well. And I love other people that have that,  everyone has their different skill sets of there's the doers and then there's the intense thinkers. And then everyone's a spectrum in between. I definitely lean more towards the doing side than the thinking side, but at the same time, I love thinking. And so it's I will spend time, but then there are people who just think, and they're like, I don't know how to get anything done, but they're also usually the masters at whatever they end up doing, because they have such an intense focus on that particular thing. I envy that almost, or like I watch a whiplash. I loved the whole idea of, for myself. Can I be so obsessed with what I'm doing? That I just do it constantly all the time and it's no, I can't, I just can't do it. I just don't have that bone in my body. I might get better at, as I get older, but that's obsession isn't in me. Okay. then what do I do? then I conduct, I'd be the conductor I figure out who does have that kind of energy who can get that intense, deep focus and spend nine hours looking at the same thing and go deep into it and get lost in it so much so that it's not even relevant anymore. I love that sort of perfectionism. And then to be able to say, all right, let's take perfectionism and then let's do it because if you don't, if you only stay with perfectionism, nothing will ever get done. I still have, the motto is finished is better than perfect or a better way of saying it is. perfection isn't human imperfection is honest and I'd rather go for honesty than I would perfection. And that I think is what people are hungering for. And that feels really doable because then actually something can get done. And then I can surround myself with these people who maybe are energy draining, but at least are really good at what they do. And then it's my job to pull the energy back up and it's yes, I do love that. I'm curious,  how do you manage your days?  do you have any sort of routine, do you read every day? Do you have intentions? Do you journal, like how do you stay on top of everything? Like I know that you're constantly reading these books and staying caught up on mindset and how to keep moving forward. But what does that look like for you?

[00:41:48]Gabe Ratliff: [00:41:48] I have my, what I call my me time in the morning. I love, I used to be the opposite. I would actually do stuff in the afternoons and have it be the break of my day. 

[00:41:56] Micah Groenevelt: [00:41:56] Are you a morning riser?

[00:41:58]Gabe Ratliff: [00:41:58] I'm an anomaly.  I tried the 4:35 AM thing. That's definitely not me,  I to get really creative at night.  my energy and creativity blossoms  Bob Dylan talks about this, like when you're, when the world calms down, the sun starts to go down. you don't feel that pressure. Of doing stuff.  that's when I transition either into  working on an idea or  writing or,  creating. and then I like to read at night, but in the morning it's usually  workout. I had a really great run this morning and worked out and then, meditate, yoga. get cleaned up, have a nice brunch or whatever.  at that point  I feel great. And it really I've found cause I used to resist exercise, , but what I've found is I started to just figure out what worked for me and especially being in this situation, I can't, I used to love going to orange theory , but this has pushed me to get it's stronger on my own. figure it out for myself.  And that's been a really powerful thing because.  I don't have any things to use as a crutch. Cause it's like time or the gym or the blood and the blood. And it's no, man, just throw some shoes on, go outside, do your own body weight. Nothing is in your way.  those things have actually been a great for me. But what I wanted to say is that what's been so powerful is just that it's helped me feel better and it's helped me get out of my head. sometimes, cause we think a lot, right? Like we're just constantly, you were saying earlier, like we're spinning constantly as creatives.  that helps me. And it's where I do my best thoughts.  all of a sudden I get these cool ideas.  in the middle of, a couple of miles and I'll be like, Ooh it, and it'll hit me. And I'm like, yes. and then, so then you're like recharged and you're out of your brain. Because you're in your body. 

[00:43:45] Micah Groenevelt: [00:43:45] And we forget get that our brain is in our body. that's a mechanism inside of our body that is deeply affected by what's happening to the body. Of course that's when the best idea would come when the body feels good and your heart is pumping and your breath is flowing in a rhythm. And that idea sparks, of course, that would make sense. And yet at the same time, no, that's hard. And that hurts me. And they're like, yeah, I know there's something. that's how I found it. I like that. It's a place where I can output pain. I think as humans, we are constantly oscillating up and down of like pleasure and pain. And I think a lot of anxiety for people is their brain essentially saying, Hey, we're used to having more physical pain than this. And so we're going to put it into your mind in the circumstance. Can't prove that's a cool theory that I have. and so  I don't want that. So let's inflict pain upon my own body. And so then it's that's what exercise can be, is like this healthy way of saying, alright, my body can be tough. My body can feel hard things and I can push it to the place where I want to go. And then you find that you do get what you like for your body too. It's like it wasn't about I liked the way that I look, I'm the kind of like a vain man and it's fun being a vain man.  my hair is one of the strongest acids of me. And then also at the same time as I like walking by mirrors and seeing that, and I understand that sort of appeal. And I was like, I just want to exercise so that I can look good for myself. And then, and it wasn't even like to look strong  my icon is like Nathan Drake or Indiana Jones. One of those adventurers who can just hang from one ledge here and then jump up to the next ledge. And that was my goal where I was like, alright, then my exercise goal is to be able to hang from one leg and jump to the next ledge. And it's like, all right, then what kind of exercise needs to be done for that? And then I find that a more natural strength comes to my body too, because then I'm working with my body rather than here's what they're supposed to do. Here's the stretches you're supposed to be able to. Fit into, instead of no listening to my body, having a better relationship between my mind and body, how are we doing? How do we like to do okay, cool. Let's push it here. Let's maybe take a breath there. I need to learn to do more peace and quiet because my body's Nope, the pain we're here for the pain, not for the meditation part. And I'm like, no. The meditation part and staying those three extra breaths, even when you want to leave. That's important. That takes that extra little moment to slow down and then you can be, it's yeah, those are constant. it's a battle, man. I love the battle that life is. It's such a fun, so chaotic journey of these oscillating waves of . Am I gonna be able to figure it out? no. I'm not gonna be able to get up. Yes. I am going to be able to figure it out and then you keep doing and you push forward. 

[00:46:18] Gabe Ratliff: [00:46:18] And then you look back and you go, wait, I figured it out. I just did that the other day I was looking at something and I was like, Oh my gosh. I'm like totally living that example of what I wanted to be doing. Wow. That's so cool. Because before I looked at it, it was like a bigger hurdle,

[00:46:30] Micah Groenevelt: [00:46:30] Do you have those moments when  you're there and you have that realization, when you connect to the idea that you had of when I wanted to do that, and then I'm doing it right now, it's happening that thing as a kid that I fantasized about doing at one point, I'm doing it and it's happening now, those are such good moments. I love a good aha

[00:46:47] Gabe Ratliff: [00:46:47] right?  do you have a process? 

[00:46:50] Micah Groenevelt: [00:46:50] I don't do discipline well, that's the one thing that I'm learning, but yeah, so like right now for me, The main discipline thing that's been most pivotal is journaling. Before I go to bed.  it allows me to let my brain just put the thoughts down and to write crazy things, because there are some things that I write that I'm like, Oh yeah, that I'll say crazy things, but not to this level. And so to be able to just have a dialogue with myself and let every thought that I have no matter how heinous or weird or. Alien that it is to be able to put that down. Yeah. Paper's really important. And then I've also just practiced to let my mind just go because there are times where I'll just like sketch, so it's not journaling anymore.  And then I've learned that's how good sketcher does that? seeing the image in your mind, it's like the third eye drawing kind of thing. Whereas I'm not thinking about what my hand is doing. I'm just thinking about what needs to be there. And then you just do it and then that's been a cool experimentation of manifesting,  that's a bad word for it, but the same sort of principle applies to daily life. And so then when I wake up, I'm more often. Yeah, one, I remember my dreams more often when I do that. And I think it's important for me to start remembering my dreams and figuring out, all right, what does this dream mean to me? How can I learn from this? What is going on in my life? That's allowing us to rise up because I am. Pretty intuitive. And if I can, if I'm in the middle of the thought and then something else enters, I know that there's some relevance to that thought whether it's significant or,  doesn't really matter. I give it the space or I try to give it the space that it needs. So journaling helps me do that. So I can wake up feeling ready for the day. Last night, his journal of preparing for what am I got going tomorrow? Okay. And then also what Rose up today inside me? When did I feel like I did a bad job? And then I feel like I do a good job. What did I care about? What kept coming to me? Why do I have that sinking feeling in my stomach? For some reason about this subject that I don't even know why I feel that. You just let that all sit and then it ends up coming, hang out before I get to go to bed. So that's the main routine that I have. And then the other one is been yoga and Jung. So it's like reading Jung and then doing yoga. And so that one is off and on. I'll get to that about three days a week, which I would like to do that daily, but it really just depends on what I've got going that day. and then that sort of centers me for the day. And then when I'm during the daytime, I'm the same as you have, once the sun goes down, my idea is settled in and that's when I can really do creative stuff and really just enjoy life the way I really want to enjoy it. during the day, it's what needs to get done and I'm really fast. And I can get in that mindset where I'm just like, let's just hustle, let's get it done and send all these different emails, these different messages. Okay, let's do this. I got to meet this person. We're going to go and pick that up from her and then go bring it over here and then I'll come home and then the sun will go down. And then that's when it's like I'll smoke some weed and enjoy just slowing down with some good music, realize, alright, that was a really successful day. Now, what. And then that's when it opens up, because now it's now what, which means anything is an opportunity and something that will be like, let's put on a movie and work on costumes while I do that. Or let's sit down at my arts and crafts cable and  layout pages all over the place and see what are every single different thing that I'm going to need onscreen to be able to pull off this the way that I want it to look. That was a cool thing. When you were saying that if movies, these days, I feel like have split into these two different categories, which is. There's really high production value and very little substance, or really low production value and more substance. But also it depends really on the filmmaker. And then that's the struggle of being in the indie film world is it's so hard to get that high production value. So most people just sort of resigned to a certain level of quality and substance, and it's like, why. They're already missing the substance and they have the quality. Can we just not bring both to this particular thing? The technology allows us to do now, why can't we do that? And so I love sort of thinking about it, cause I've been in film enough now that it's no, what needs to go on screen? Not what is the system? Because we do have a system I was watching side-by-side it's a documentary about a transition from film into digital camera making. and the first digital camera that actually works, they designed exactly like an old film camera, so that crews could still have the big mag on top that they took off as Deckard in that they just had a giant magnet so that it looked that way. So the crews were used to it and I'm like, no, there's an ingrained system on how Hollywood makes movies. And that can be broken and you can get as good of results doing something totally different there's technology for cameras. These days for $5,000, that is nicer than the technology. David Fincher was inventing for the social network 10 years ago. And you're like, that's insane. Like we have all of that at our fingertips now. And it's alright, so then what are the things that need to go on screen? So I love taking my evenings to just sit and think about what are the different things that I like to see. And again, it goes back to that sort of finding confidence in yourself. what are you really What do you really know is going to work and then do that? How is that going to actually be practical? And then once you can put all of those in place, then you're like, all right, now I feel like we have a really solid game plan. And then everyone feels encouraged by it too, because you know exactly how everything is going to be done. it's a really good way of doing things that I found like, yeah, it's not the right ways, not the systematized way, but it's the way that works. And the way that works is the way that works. 

[00:51:48]Gabe Ratliff: [00:51:48] One of the things that I'm really excited to see is what this year does for that exact. Conversation  the movie industry all the way to movie theaters,  I immediately, when it happened was like drive ins and sure enough, literally the next day I saw a post drive ins are starting to open up and I was like, of course, but it got me thinking ,  this is where innovation comes. Is having these constraints put on us,  but the other benefit of this constraint is it's allowed people to get deep and to really be with themselves and to really think about what's important to them. And like you did, right?   it's promoting all of this beautiful creation and collaboration, and this also can create a lot of great innovation.  I'm wondering , what's going to happen with the film industry and storytelling? look at Netflix, right? Like they planted this seed years ago of we're going to try this go and digital thing.  blockbuster went out of business and they blew up and then here we are, and they're able to still be pushing all this content. It's not on the big screen, but it allows people and indie filmmakers documentarians to be able to tell their story. And they're not having to live in   major network land, or necessarily get into the Hollywood system. 

[00:53:11] Micah Groenevelt: [00:53:11] Yeah. Well, there's something big about that, of what happens to the theater experience? Whereas just there is something huge that I love about the theater, which is everyone's there to watch the movie, whereas the driving you're still there to hang out with your friends and have a movie going, but the lights go down.  your entire view is the screen. And the sound just comes at you.    we're not going to see deers anytime soon. I don't think, I think maybe early next year is when we'll start seeing some of those up and back up. But even then, there's going to be like a slow buildup period over time where we read, familiarize ourselves with that experience, which is going to mean that it's going to change.  they're going to  take the more, this is an experience Avenue, rather than, Hey, we go and watch a movie and  then you leave kind of thing. I think it will become a little bit encompass experience, but there's part of me that wonders what will happen to the home viewing experience, because I would love for something to arise where it cultivates that kind of intentionality at home, because yeah, it's easy to get a big TV these days. You can get a big screen in your own home and for a really reasonable rate. And then to be able to get  good speakers as well. Like those are the two most important things for having a good movie experience. I love when people come over and they see the TV and they're like, could we like at least watch a couple of scenes? Yeah. that's what it is about having a big four K TV like that is, it's still a wonderful experience. And you're like, alright, how do we do that? And then also I just keep remembering the fact of. Part of the reason I want a theater is because I'm an adult and I'm jaded a little bit. And I would like my experience to become a little bit more organic because when I was a kid, I wasn't watching movies in the theaters. I was watching them on those square. TV's that wait, 5,000 pounds. And you sit and then you've watched movies on repeat as a kid and you were lost in it. And it was amazing. And it's that experience has improved drastically. And so it's who are the future generations as far as how they watch movies and how are they coming up and how can we cultivate? The main thing that I want to preserve is an intentional viewing experience where it's not about.  looking at your phone in between, right? It's there's something to be said of, I have a friend who's a really stickler about it, where I'll go up to the fridge to get something to drink or something. And then he'll just pause and really we're not doing this. And he's like now mad at me because now we've interrupted the flow of the action film, the entire experience. But I love something about that. There's something about no we're doing this and this is a special experience. So as long as there's a way we can still maintain that. While also treating movies, like how I think most people feed movies, which I've never lost this. And I love which is it's really right. There's very few movies that are like, unless you're a filmmaker that are like, that changed my life. That transformed me, that. Allowed me to see who I was. Usually what movies are, is a stepping stone. They can come at the right time at the right place to give you that next piece of information. And that's, what's so powerful about it. Movies, you can reach millions of people and give millions of people that next stepping stone we're versus a therapist who sees one person and takes you from zero to 100. And so there's something really cool about that experience of helping the masses recover. And that's something that I've always felt called to is. Life it's hard. Life is hard and chick gets dark really fast and people's struggle and people are locked in their own ways and their patterns and their routines. And it's really hard to break free. And if I can be one of the people that can say, I'm not afraid of dark, I'm willing to reach in. So where are you guys all are out who are misunderstood and people don't really know the struggle that you're going through, what would be horrified by some of the things that you think you're seeing in your okay. And then how can I help you guys move towards the light and then doing it now with everybody that feels like something that's really doable. In a way that I know exactly how much impact that could be made too. It's yeah, no, that just affects more people over time. And I would love to see that because I've always felt that with this movie that we're making now, it's like, there's something about it that feels like it's going to be a cult classic. Can't say that because I don't know anything about how the movie's going to do and it might be But also at the same time, there was something really cool about. It found a sort of initial audience and then people just continue to watch it. what are the movies that I have on my shelf, these DVDs that I pull off and I keep revisiting, why do I revisit them every single year? because it speaks to me and it speaks to who I am and my core.   gladiator will never get old for me. That will always re new things in me. And that is one of the best movies ever made in my opinion. And they didn't have a finished script and they shot that movie  you never know where it's going to come from. You don't know how it's going to unfold. But to be able to integrate it into yourself and know that's the type of thing that I want to see that's the thing that helps me grow and that I can help share with others 

[00:57:38]Gabe Ratliff: [00:57:38] yeah. So Ridley Scott and James Cameron  two people who continue to just pluck my heart strings, repeatedly. aliens. the Martian, Oh my God. I love the Marsh. And anytime it's on my wife laughs at me. Cause anytime it's on it doesn't matter what part in the movie I will sit and finish it.

[00:57:58] Micah Groenevelt: [00:57:58] That to me. No, it's a good movie. I love when you can be caught by any scene. movies has sort of been more and more relying on the overarching plot. Does the overarching plot work? But then there's something about me. I seen so many the movies now that I always just know what's going to happen in movie. It's very rare. Yeah. I'm surprised watching movie, but for me then it's the specific scenes I'm like, how dynamic is the scene? Where is that going to go, it's a good movie when you put it on and it doesn't matter what scene it's on. It just sucks you in immediately. You're like, Oh, this is just a good scene. And then you just forget that the whole thing through like, There will be blood. I rewatched recently. And it was like, I started halfway through just to look at a scene and then yeah, you sit there for the next two hours finishing the entire thing and I'm like, dang it. I had things I needed to get done. Dang it. That movie was so good.

[00:58:42]Gabe Ratliff: [00:58:42] I have this conversation with one of my friends. who's also the stickler about watching movies.  he has a massive, beautiful viewing, listening experience in his place and love watching stuff over there. But he has, he's really devout to the craft of filmmaking. And he's so great to have conversations with about, cinema and just storytelling and getting into the nitty gritty.

[00:59:12] We watched insomnia. if you get the Blu-ray, which I bought, cause he told me this, I didn't know it at the time. But if you get the blue, right, you can actually watch the shooting schedule so you can watch the film in order of the shooting schedule. And he talks through the shooting.

[00:59:24] It's awesome. It's a masterclass. It's awesome.

[00:59:26] Micah Groenevelt: [00:59:26] That's amazing. I 

[00:59:27] Gabe Ratliff: [00:59:27] cool. Yeah. It's very cool. And it's Fincher. So you're like, yeah, sign me up, whatever it is. But I get in these conversations with them about Nolan, , his set pieces are just so dynamic, like inception and interstellar and obviously the dark nights series, but just the set pieces and the way he tells stories.  he only shoots in film and, I just love how devoted they are to.  the foundation of storytelling, but that they, like you said earlier, he'll tease in the visual effects to get specific and craft someone's face, and do it, shaping their face, like you were mentioning and that he goes to that level, but that the experience is go see that shit on a big screen because he makes big screen movies, 

[01:00:12] Micah Groenevelt: [01:00:12] It meant to be viewed that way.  I saw Interstellar on the 70 millimeter film and there's nothing like that. that's just such a unique experience and it feels wondrous. That it didn't matter if the movie was good or not. , you can feel the energy coming off of a movie when it's in a big screen like that. And you get that sort of authenticity. . There's always a balance to be found like any extreme, usually as flirting with danger  there's a cool example do you know what para-theater is? It's fairly recently, it's the form of theater where you. Act for yourself. It's performing for noone. And I was, I always had this attitude of why don't you ever do that? what's the point of creating anything if you're not sure sharing it with somebody, but then I realized, Oh, that was my ego talking like, Micah, you want success? You want to feel to show these things. You want to have an influence on the world rather than just love the art that you do. And so there's parent theater on one extreme, and then there's Michael Bay on the other,  it's lost its authenticity almost. It's lost its heart and soul, but it's so technically masterful. That it's also impressive and it is for audiences and it is widely seen and widely loved, and mix buckets of money.  that's what I think you're talking about with some of these filmmakers is they bring those two sides together. Cause for Nolan, it has that authenticity. I feel like if he wasn't making films, she would still just be making art and it would have that same. Authentic feel that it does. And then he brings in elements of the craft and it's yeah, you can't get too lost in this direction or too less in this direction. You have to have some sort of hybrid in between, or at least those are the films that I love the most. That's why I think we talk about Guillermo Del Toro or Christopher Nolan or Denis Villeneueve in this way is I think those are directors that have that sort of spirit. there's always something interesting about when a filmmaker has never made a film before, but they're an authentic artists. And then they come to it and then they try and make a movie. Those are always really interesting movies because they're technically flawed in many ways, but always get it something interesting that you would never see from anybody else.  it's two different schools where Terentino's seen every movie that's ever existed. So every movie he's made is essentially just a giant collage of every other movie that's ever existed. And then someone who's never seen any movie ever. And then to watch what kind of movie did it would make. there's some really cool experiments we had there.

[01:02:20] Gabe Ratliff: [01:02:20] yeah. The what popped in my head when you were talking about that was brick 

[01:02:24] Micah Groenevelt: [01:02:24] Yes, Rian Johnson

[01:02:26] Gabe Ratliff: [01:02:26] And there's a lot of controversy about his, star Wars film,

[01:02:31]Micah Groenevelt: [01:02:31] He redeemed it for me with Knives Out. Knives Out I loved so much.

[01:02:33] Gabe Ratliff: [01:02:33] Me too.

[01:02:36] Micah Groenevelt: [01:02:36] Sorry. I just proved that he is a master writer. yeah, that movie is just really so good. That's the best mystery I've ever seen.

[01:02:42]Gabe Ratliff: [01:02:42] He did that for me too. I actually wrote that cause I do a film and TV series recommendations every week called critical fandom. I did that one and we actually watched it on the, did I watch, I think I'm watching it on the plane on the way to Asia. And I finished and I was like, that was awesome. that was so amazing. It was fun. I loved, and people had issues with Daniel Craig and I was like, he had so much fun in that role.

[01:03:08] Micah Groenevelt: [01:03:08] You just got so much of a style and possess. that movie is big and I love the bigness of that movie. It just feels. It feels absurd in the most playful way. I love it. It's so fun. And it's just so clean and so crisp. It doesn't feel like they waste any time. It has this amazing star studded cast. It's one of those like great classic movies that feels like oceans, like the ocean's movies where you could  put it up with anybody and everyone would always have a good time, no matter who you are. And I love when, if someone can do that. 

[01:03:36] Gabe Ratliff: [01:03:36] I've come to the conclusion in all of these years of watching cinema from horrific B movies and Grindhouse to the best of the best. And I just feel like if you've got a really great story, you get, everything comes together. You've got a great film, but what I've found is for me, it's the ones you can go back and watch over and over some of them they're great, but I'm like, I don't want to watch it again. Like it's taxing. Some of them are taxing. 

[01:04:07]Micah Groenevelt: [01:04:07] They're a chore movie, Where it's like you watch them and you're glad you did,  it's like cleaning out the fridge or cleaning the bathroom where you're like, you just feel so much better about it done, but you're like,  I'm not going to do that again until  , I got to go do it again. And again, it's like there, those were important films, but yeah, those are not the films that I would sit and watch over and over again. And I think it's important for people to have tasted those. like I was talking about with this, with my composer, where like I sent him the soundtrack from under the skin. Have you seen it under the skin? Yeah. And he is like, what is this diarrhea it's happening on my ears? And I'm like, yeah, it's weird. It's experimental. And it makes you feel a grit and grime and a confusion and an UN like it's off tone and off beat. And there's something about that feeling that's really important.  we were talking about the difference between music as a piece itself versus within the context of an entire film. And I'm like, that's part of the power of, I think film is you can take someone on a journey, make them feel feelings that they would never feel that I think would be really good for them to feel and then say, Hey, we're going to still keep doing this movie. And that's an opportunity for a medium like that, to be able to explore sides of your emotions that aren't explored anywhere else. Whereas music. Yeah. You listen to the first 30 seconds and then be like, no, this isn't for me. I'm going to turn it off. This is bad on my ears. But if you had beautiful music in this first half, and then you make them feel this weird and then take it back to beautiful, then they're having a dialogue between what is the difference between that horrible sensation that I felt. And then the beauty that I felt, especially when it comes right in the middle of that, moving already got them locked in place. There's something really cool about filmmaking that allows for that I don't think a lot of other mediums do.

[01:05:43] Gabe Ratliff: [01:05:43] Oh, that's cool. I like that thinking.  we understand in film that's such an important aspect of filmmaking,. the audio is way more important than the video, right? The video could be crappy, but as long as you can hear it, you're good. And a lot of people can understand that when you put it in that context, they're like, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. And that's why podcasts, I think do well. Is because people can listen to them and they can visualize what you're talking about. They don't have to see it, but when you use it in that way to actually manipulate, like physiologically manipulate someone. On top of what they're visually seeing.  you're taking them on this journey, along with the characters. But when you think about it, on that grander scale, , as the conductor, you're conducting this story, this journey that you're taking them on, but you're thinking about it on this psychological level, where you're getting into, like it's physiologically affecting them, , you're thinking about the psychology of. Okay. If I do this musically in this moment, in the middle of the film where we get into the second act and like shit starting to break down and unfold and we're getting deeper into it, and we're literally getting deeper into the story and then you're taking them deeper into the abyss of this character. that stuff is to me is like that's gold. Cause then you start to really bring people into this world

[01:07:03]Micah Groenevelt: [01:07:03] that's what I'm like really terrified and excited to figure out how to do is how do you pace a longer piece? How do you go on this roller coaster? Where does it go from scene to scene? I hate when movies drag, especially if they don't give me a reason to drag. I love when a good filmmaker says, this is going to drag here. You're going to stop thinking about the movie, but you're going to think about the movie. And now I'm going to pull you back in, that's a really nuanced technique that you can use in filmmaking. And so I'm like, Ooh, I'm really excited to see how can I ride this wave of, Oh my gosh, this is happening. And then this is happening, right? It's like in writing, they talk about it as  raising the stakes, Or keeping things moving. but there's a rhythm, there's a musicality. It's It's one of those great symphonies, the way that it's like slow builds. And then how was this giant gang? And then it comes back down and then it swells a little bit. And like, how do you do that with a film so that it feels symbolic, that it has this rhythm to it that you start understanding subconsciously like, Oh, this is the pace of this. Whoa. You're not allowed to do that with movies, but right. And you sort of  lean in and are engaged and you have that connectedness. Like I love when films are able to do that. part of that comes down to, I just seen so many movies that I can just predict. And so then I know what would I want to see? And then how can I pull it off? Am I going to be able to do this?  that's the fun thing is like you create a container. I love thinking about any sort of film. Or structures as containers for liquids. And then the creativity is the actual liquid. So my job as the director with my mind is to create these different boxes and categories and spreadsheets to be able to allow liquid to just flow through.  that's what you do with an actor, right? you write the script first and foremost, and then you rehearse. And what you're doing is you're giving them these little checkpoints to think about in their head of,  go from here to here, and then you do it. And when you do it, All of that goes away and you're there. And art that happens. I love that's. One of my favorite parts of directing is watching a performance where kind of just spirit takes over and you see them lose and you feel it. And you, it just feels like you all enter into a Holy place. And everyone on set always feels it too, where everyone's just I can almost feel them hold their breath as this thing happens. And then some magic happens that you couldn't have never planned in a million years. And then you're like, that was it. we didn't know how to do it. We just knew that we had checkpoint these boxes, and then all of it fueled into that. And then you got to take that and then bring it into the edit and do the exact same thing where it's like, all right, we know checkpoint. This is seems going to go here. And then it's going to flow right into this with this transition, but then you get there and then you'll just hit that cut brings it together and be like, I'd never thought of that. How am I going? It's the happy accidents. And then you're like, ah, it's a miracle that anything ever gets made. But then you're like, no, it's a miracle that everything gets made. And then you're like, that's so cool. We're going to be a part of this miracle process as it unfolds in front us. No way. 

[01:09:50] Gabe Ratliff: [01:09:50] I love it. I remember one of them was moments and regardless of how you feel about superhero films, I'm a fan, but  I'm also into intimate indie stories, documentaries, you name it, but there's the moment in infinity war where. We start seeing Peter Parker. Have you seen it? Yeah. that was improv and that was pure gold because  you felt that's what I would feel like. Like the way he did that   no, I don't want to go.   I'm getting chills now. Like it was this moment of that's what I would be like.  Cause I, we don't. We don't want to go into this mortal oil. I love that whole, do not go gentle into that good night. I love that. I love reminding myself of that poem because it's, that's how we are. we have this will to live and to be that kind of big. High production value movie  but then to have that beautiful little intimate moment where he's hugging on Tony Stark, right? and he's like holding on to life.  just to be that one little teeny moment. that was one of the benefits of being in a theater. Cause you're watching it, everybody's weeping and you're just like, ah, and it's that's when it's not a movie.   earlier you said, it's just a movie, but when those are those moments, when people are, it transcends because it's about life, it's about us and like this.  journey towards knowledge and wisdom and experience and the unknown and  having these kinds of experiences, like right now, right? Like making a new friend and connecting and talking about all kinds of things. Like we've barely talked about your film, but we're connecting on so many levels. Because this is what makes the film you are, what makes the film, and like how you look at it. And that's what is so fascinating to me about having these conversations is, getting  deeper. That was what I was so excited about having this conversation with you, because you appreciate that. And that's part of making this film. Like you're all that you've been talking about over this last hour or so is around your process and around how you as a human art. Looking at your craft, the industry, working with your team, telling a story.

[01:12:17]Micah Groenevelt: [01:12:17] I'm beginning to believe that I think that's what art is. I think art is the person, right? So it's what does the person do for themselves? And how are they working on themselves? And then what do they go out and do and manifest. And so I think there's a large degree of yeah, there are the kind of community films where it's based on the concepts, And the concept and that sort of works. And you can sell it based on just that. But it's not just that the reason Indiana Jones is great is not because it's a great concept, which it is. It's because Steven Spielberg and George Lucas being in a room with them, you probably just felt that energy, you would just be like, I see it. I see it. And I know that what we're about to do is going to be something great and let's do it. And I think that is more important I would never want to get into the nit and grit of what happens in the movie and all these different things. Because when someone talks to me about their movie, I don't care about that. So why would I want to share that? Yeah. That's for you to witness and experience on the theater in the screen. What I would rather talk about is how can we yeah. Live our lives in a meaningful way that allows us to create great art, that, how do we understand what R D is even where does that come from? What does that mean inside of us? How does that find its way through our lips in a way that. Is mine, but isn't mine  that's been a big thing for me right now is like, where do I give the credits? Because  , I shouldn't get any of the credit for this movie because it doesn't feel like I made it. It feels like it was made through me. And so it's like, take the small things might go enjoy the little small little bonuses of those were your ego. Okay. Come in. And I think Eagle is filmmaking is flavorless filmmaking, but I think. Directing with ego is a recipe for disaster. And so it's where can my ego kind of flirt with these kinds of edges or the corners so that it's not these hard blocky sides, but also at the same time, it can round them out. And then the rest just goes back. The rest is for us. It's that communal experience of watching that movie. And you all feel that sorrow, we all share the sorrow for this character that we love. No, no, no, no. And then we all had that experience. It's for them it's for all those people in the audience, it was never for the guy who made it was not for any of that. It's for us to just make him put back down, because again, it's that cycle loop of that tree outside is as important and how it affects me as me affecting it. And there's an interplay between those two things. And I just want to ride the wave between those. And I think that's the dance of life is like learning how to get better at riding the wave.  yeah, it's a wave and it's is going to crash. Are you going to be underneath the wave when it crashes or are you going to try and be surfing on top of it or are you going to dive straight into it and take it head on kind of thing like that I think is more valuable and that's why we're making the movie, that's what the movie's message is about. That's why we would take them on this experience is to teach them something that would hold hopefully make your life better. Hopefully help you see that. There's beauty in all things. And that the beauty of darknesses is rich and delicious and can be used in the beauty of light. And that these two things he's in harmony. Like I liked how you said it, where you're like, I'm a superhero guy, but I also like these other movies. Yeah. Like them all. Let's like them all. And then have our preferences and our favorites and our tastes, but then let's just experience all of it. I see that the world that we're living in is amazing. It's a miracle it's so bad and so good. And just on a zoomed out perspective. That's insane in the coolest, most insane, beautiful, experimental way that there could possibly be. And so I like to think about it that way and try and create that way and hopefully lead other people to create that way. That would be, I think, better. That's why I think it's worth fighting for.

[01:15:38]Gabe Ratliff: [01:15:38] Hear! Hear!.  I want to juxtapose what you just said, because what immediately came up for me is it's that's what I've loved about travel. and like seeing other countries, we recently were, like I said, we were in Thailand and Sri Lanka and India, and I have this new lens at which I look at Asia and we love it. We miss it. We actually were talking about it the other day about how we miss it. And there's these little things that you're like, Oh my God. And like India, I met so many wonderful people in India and have all these new friends. And I miss them, but being there and seeing what it's like and tasting that food and very much akin to tasting that the food of different stories. that's why the thing is so great about us being so into. This medium, right? Is that it just, if you're open to it and you're not closed off, like, say country for some people with music or superhero movies, for some people with cinema, but watching it, there's a playfulness to it, childlike quality, but there's always the morals and that's, what's so great about fantasy. Is that like game of Thrones, masterfully covered. Character development and super complex themes.  we watched it again, the second time I was,  so sucked in and I was like, this is  intelligent storytelling. This is so great. like you were talking about, this is just over a hundred years old. And books have been written for centuries. Look at what we've been able to do with storytelling.  I was just thinking about this yesterday, look at how people are starting to really play around with camera, movement and edits, right? if you watch a YouTube and you see all these people that are like getting crazy with their transitions and things, And I was thinking about that as a, I've been a cinematographer, I've been, an, been an editor for years and you worked on all these films and shows and things,  there's  the rules that get established, right?  you talked about it before about the film cameras and they kept the digital camera the same, just so they felt comfortable with it. you get into this like routine,

[01:17:48] Micah Groenevelt: [01:17:48] systems, or like habits, routines,  I rewatched a bug's life recently. And that movie is amazing. I had not lost that movie since being like five year old kid, but they have a great moment where everyone's walking in a line, all these ants and then a leaf falls in between them. And then they all freak out. They can't figure out. And then the guy has to come over and be like, no. I'll around the leaf. And there's the line again.  just in that little moment, they pinpoint that, Which is we get so locked in our ways and our systems and because they're safe, right. Familiarity is safe and we know that it's worked. And so it's natural for us to say that allows us to survive and that will keep allowing us to survive. But then. Nothing great ends up happening from that. And you'll build yourself into a rut where yeah. You're not being fulfilled anymore because your brain is going on auto pilot a little bit. And so to travel to India and see a totally different culture  what you can live life this way, even. I feel that I'm here  I've lived in Colorado, my whole life and I've traveled to Paraguay, but when I was young and then I've been to Scotland   even, and recently was like, this is different. I didn't. I didn't realize it could be like this. And so then now that I get older and I realized I'm a weird alien who doesn't operate in society in the normal ways. There's other ways we can do this. And people don't even know about them. And so there's something about opening up those doors and saying, no, look at all these different kinds of ways of being there's no one right way of being find the way that suits you and feels like it opens you up. Whereas like this jacket was an example for that. Like I went to the antique store yesterday. And I just saw this jacket and it's a woman's jacket, but I just saw it and it was right. And I felt like with me in it, and I was like, Oh, I love it. I love it so much. I feel like a red coat  and when people ask, I'm going to say, yes, I killed the red coat and I stole his jacket. And like, yeah. Tell me about that. I'm like, yeah, that's not a normal thing for a human beings to do, but I love that abnormality. That's what kind of gives me flavor and juice and makes me excited to wake up every single day and then be like, Oh yeah, no, I'm going to wear this on the webcam and then I'll have a way to show it off. Those are the small little juices that we get and to be able to open up those doors for people to allow them to see more. I think that's what some of the best art does is it really is the key that unlocks that door opens that window.

[01:19:59]Gabe Ratliff: [01:19:59] here, here, man.  that's a big part of why. I do this show is to remind people that they are not alone. that we as creatives and as humans are not alone, right? someone may be listening to this episode that really connects with what you're saying, and it allows them to feel. Like they have permission to be that weird alien. By having these conversations and  hearing the energy and the creativity and  all of the things that can come out of connecting and collaborating and having these conversations and sharing these stories and these triumphs,   showing that you're making this thing happen, you're making this story, you're telling the tale of the noble animal, and  so devout to it. And you're so empowered in who you are, we have our weaknesses and we have our strengths and we have our fallibility, but We're still pressing forward. We're not going gentle into that good night. And that's the mission with this show is to share these little tidbits, to go deeper into these connections and these conversations, but to also glean these things of we're not alone, there are others out there and you're finding these people to help you tell this tale and to. Tap in all these things we've been talking about. that is life,  art imitates life. And that's just so beautiful, man. I really appreciate you taking the time to  share with me and the audience and just get into these  fun, geeky conversations. 

[01:21:32] Micah Groenevelt: [01:21:32] Oh, my gosh, this is so fun. I love doing this,  I love also speaking to other creatives like this too,  like attracts, like there's some things destined about this, the minute that I saw your podcast, it was just that's going to be right. That's just going to be absolutely right. And then it was, and I just knew it and I felt it. And so there's something about Finding those people. And I think there's an element of us leveling up in our own lives and realizing that as people start arriving.  there's no coincidence in my mind that we met at the time that we did and that we had as fun as we did. we're both in the same world.  I'm really excited to see where both of our lives take us and how that might find its way to overlap.  I would love to see how you'd want to be a part of the project if you were. and to see what you're working on and how I can help you out with figuring out how to execute some of your projects of yeah, you're writing a feature, you can make a feature, 

[01:22:13] Gabe Ratliff: [01:22:13] I'm so scared. 

[01:22:15] Micah Groenevelt: [01:22:15] Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's terrifying. It's the scariest thing in the world. and yet we got to do it. That's the sad responsibility of the artist is where you would almost choose to have the ordinary life if we could, because it is struggle that we go through. But at the same time, It's a purposeful struggle. living that purposeful life that is worth doing, 

[01:22:36] Gabe Ratliff: [01:22:36] Oh yeah. there were so many things that I connected with. You.   Cause I've been working on this for a similarly for a couple of years and I had put it down for a while and I was having imposter syndrome and all this stuff. Cause I hadn't done it. I had not to this scale and you know that you also it's like a baby, right? we all understand that when you're creating these things, cause like when it's done, it's like this finished thing, right? It's like you've spent months on it and years on it and it's like this birthing process comes out right. Fun, Yes. because of that, there's this weight that is put on it of what, because of exactly what you said earlier of wanting to do it justice. having that much weight on it that you're like, it needs to be done. It has to be done. I have to tell this story. For so many reasons, but then also having , this need for it to be told properly, and give it justice in the telling of it because it's so important and it's not just like the machine. Of storytelling and content creating. no, this thing has like purpose and passion and everything mixed up in it.  I connected with you so much on that. Cause I, till I get it

[01:24:01] Micah Groenevelt: [01:24:01] Yeah, we got one life. Where are we gonna do with it? 

[01:24:03]Gabe Ratliff: [01:24:07] I'm going to let the  Kickstarter video. Tell the tale, and let people 

[01:24:13] Micah Groenevelt: [01:24:13] That'd be the main thing, send them to the Kickstarter video of if you want to learn about the project, watch the video. I think it does a really good job of doing that. Like I'm not asking people for money, I'm asking them to watch the video because then it's about, do they feel compelled to do they care about the project that, I stayed at the end.  I just want you to be excited about what I'm excited about. Those are the people that I want. And that's been so rewarding and validating we're one weekend and we've raised $5,000. And so we're off to a good start. that would be the main thing that I would send them. And then also just follow us on Facebook, follow the Facebook page.  one of my best friends is doing a bunch of concept art for us. And so he keeps just sitting in his own place, having that same sort of creative experience as he designs all these amazing, beautiful artwork. So even if you just like fantasy artwork and want to see some amazing stuff, that's one of the beauties of Lord of the rings was how much has great concept stuff that they did for that movie. And so we had that burning and then also my composers in the same boat  he just keeps turning out these different songs to give us an idea of these motifs as we start going into production. And so then we'll be releasing these different race tracks and these paintings and some of the small projects that I've been working on and updates. And so that's the best place if you want to follow along and see what we're up to.

[01:25:20] Gabe Ratliff: [01:25:20] I love it.  what is the number one thing that you'd like listeners to take away from this conversation,

[01:25:27]Micah Groenevelt: [01:25:27] That even though worlds is in chaos and times are harder than they've ever been. That is more of an opportunity than it is a deterrent. I think there's something to be said for that. Let me create, be honest and create that's really what it comes down to. 

[01:25:45] Gabe Ratliff: [01:25:45] I love it. Micah, thank you so much for this conversation, brother. This has been an absolute blast.

[01:25:51] Micah Groenevelt: [01:25:51] It's been so fun, dude. This is so good. I love this. I love meeting you, man. Take care. 

[01:25:54] Gabe Ratliff: [01:25:54] Well, that's it for this episode, whether this is your first time listening or you're already a fan. Thanks for being here. I hope you enjoyed the show. Our links and show notes for this episode can be found at the artful.co/podcast. If you haven't yet. Please subscribe to the show and leave a rating and review on iTunes, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts, if you like what you hear and want to be a guest or know someone that's a good fit. Go to the artful.co/guest. And if you want to leave me a note about an idea or topic for the show, go to the artful.co/speakpipe. Thanks again for listening until next time. Keep being artful.