Never satisfied with just one label, Chris Martin is a curiosity builder, filmmaker, podcaster, and educator obsessed with creativity, curiosity, and bands who can remember how to play songs over 25 minutes. He loves stories that are filled to the brim with heart, edge, and fearlessness and can’t get enough of real people living their authentic and unique stories.

NOTES

• Using multiple mediums to not get bored or begin to rebel against his own creative business

• Looking at the concept of “waste” within our content while at the same time processing other artists’ work and its influence

• What it means to be human in today’s “connected” world as well as how we show up in real life versus digital

• How we can connect with our curiosity and stay curious while working on personal projects or client work

• The offerings Chris has for fellow creatives like his podcast, Getting Work to Work, his teaching workshops, and his online course system, called Curiosity Builders, that takes his in-person teaching style and shifts it to an interactive, online format

LINKS

Chris Martin Studios

Getting Work to Work podcast

Curiosity Builders

Instagram: @cmstudios 

YouTube: @chrismartinstudios 

Vimeo: @chrismartinstudios

TRANSCRIPT

Chris Martin:       00:00:00       I think for me, curiosity is a form of rebellion where I'm able to say, how can I do something that's different? How can I do something that's more me different from another? But so, but I, but authentic to me. And so curiosity is, is what allows me to rebel in a healthy way, but also dive deep, dive deep into the things that make us human. Dive deep into the stories, the stories that we tell ourselves, the stories that are injected in our art, the stories that are injected in a place. And you can't have any of that if you're not curious. You're just a cog and a machine. If you don't have curiosity.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:00:54       You're listening to The Artful Entrepreneur podcast, a show about living, an inspired life filled with vitality, creativity, and fulfillment. My name is Gabe Ratliff, and I'll be your host as I interview fellow creative entrepreneurs from around the globe to hear their stories and learn more about their work so that you can tap into your creative purpose and live a life that's drawn, not traced on the show. We talk about things like the creative process, personal development, community equity and contribution as well as the lessons learned along the way. All right, let's get to it.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:01:38       Hey, Artfuls! How's it going out there? I hope you're doing well. Thank you so much for being here. I'm really excited to be in your ears today and to share my next guest with you as we enter into 2020 but first I want to share with you some very exciting news that I've actually had to kind of keep under wraps for a little while because my wife has actually just recently put in her notice with her company and she and I are now about to step into the unknown and travel abroad for the next year. And we're very excited about this. It's been several months in development and research and lots of work, lots of research and just going through the process of what it takes to do this amazing experience together. She came to me several months ago and you know, shared that she was burning out and that she needed to take a break.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:02:41       And you know, she honored me transitioning to this life as an entrepreneur three years ago, over three years ago now. And I felt it was my duty to honor that same thing for her that she needed. So we've been working the last several months and selling our things and minimizing what we are planning to keep and what we're paying for storing. She has a travel blog called Tiffy travels.co and on TV travels. She just started putting out new posts about this journey that were, that were going on and are about to go on. And the newest post she just did was about what we wanted to keep. And one of the ways that we did that was what do we want to pay to store? And I'm a speak about it a lot on the show, but I'm an essential list, a minimalist, however you like to look at it.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:03:39       And you know, I'm big fan of Marie Kondo. I read her book, watched the show tidying up as well. And we had some friends that went to Southeast Asia for about four months before they got married. They staged with us before they left on their trip. In the coming months after that, it was kind of this, this perfect storm of just realizing how much I wanted to get rid of our things and live more of a minimalist life. But then that also also led into conversations with my wife about her need to take a break. And that just led more into conversations about, you know, how would we do this? We have two cats, how would we handle kitty care? And you know, what would we do with our house, which we decided to rent it. And we've found some really great tenants. They're amazing, and they really understand what we're doing, and they love our home as much as we do.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:04:37       And so we're, we're very blessed and we're very excited about how all these things have all come into fruition. And we have a family member who's gonna watch over our kitties, Midian mojo. So we're, we're, you know, it's very bittersweet. There's a lot of excitement and being open to the possibility for change and transformation and growth. And that's a big thing that's, you know, it's a big part of why I do this show. So I've been, I've just been so excited to finally be able to share this news and talk about this journey that we're going on because it's the unknown and it's exciting and it's scary and it's, it's so many of the fields and you know, a lot of people ask like, aren't you just super stoked? And it's like, yes, at the same time, you know, it's yes. And at the same time it's a lot of logistics and a lot of questions you have to answer a lot of decision making and it really can be taxing.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:05:37       There's also a lot of work that you have to do to, you know, travel for several months and I'm very, very open to this experience and this growth that's occurred throughout this process. It's been absolutely wonderful and it's been wonderful to share with our friends and we're actually staying with our friends that stayed with us before they went to Southeast Asia. So it's this wonderful kind of full circle place that we're at. So I just wanted to share with you guys this exciting news and this new adventure that we're about to go on. I'm just so grateful for the ability to go do this and for all the things that have come together with clients and with friends and family and you know the kitty sitting and all those things to allow us to go do this. And so I just want to share that with you.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:06:39       We're going to be beginning our trip to Thailand and then we're moving on to Goa, India. I'm going to be playing a music festival there called Holy Moly and very excited about that. Playing with my friend Sona, who we've been friends for years. This is his seventh annual Holy Moly Festival. Then we go into Sri Lanka and Vietnam, Indonesia and then onto Europe, the UK, Ireland, central America, New Zealand. And so just very, very excited about this upcoming journey. And I wanted to take just a few minutes to share this with you and let you guys in on this amazing adventure that we're about to go on. So thank you so much for being here. I hope you had a wonderful holiday with your friends and family and hope you have like a wonderful start to your 2020. With that I want to tell you about my guest. Today's guest is Chris Martin.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:07:39       I am an absolute 100% super fan of Chris. I love Chris. I love what he's doing. You will hear me say it throughout the show. We have so many things in common and it was such a treasure, such a treat to be able to pay it forward to Chris and have him on my show. He had me on his show getting work to work podcast and he was just such a treat to speak to then. And we have an extended group of friends that are all creatives that we met through and it's just been so great to get to know him better. And I really appreciated the ability to do that with him on this episode cause we just had a blast. We have so much in common and it was wonderful to be able to pick his brain and hear how he looks at creativity.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:08:35       And another word that comes up a lot for him is curiosity. A little bit about Chris, never satisfied with just one label. He is a curiosity builder, filmmaker, podcaster and educator, obsessed with creativity, curiosity and bands who couldn't remember how to play songs over 25 minutes. He loves stories that are filled to the brim with heart edge and fearlessness and can't get enough of real people living their authentic and unique stories. So as you can imagine from just reading that little bio, we share a lot in common, including the bands that can remember to play songs that were 25 minutes. And in the episode we talk about how he uses multiple mediums to not get bored or begin to rebel against his own creative business, which can happen to many of us. I have a similar problem where I can get bored so easily and have to keep switching things up a lot with the, what I'm creating or how I'm creating.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:09:43       We talk about looking at the concept of waste within our content, while at the same time processing other artist's work and its influence and how we show up with our work and you know, is there waste within our own work? It's fascinating conversation. We get into about that. We talk about what it means to be human in today's connected quote unquote world, as well as how we show up in real life versus the digital world. How we can connect with our curiosity and stay curious while working on personal projects or a client work. We also talk about the offerings that Chris has for fellow creatives like you guys with his podcast getting work to work, his teaching workshops and his online course system called curiosity builders that takes his in-person teaching style and shifts it to an interactive online format. Some wonderful stuff. Thus, I love Chris. He's a filmmaker. He's a designer, he's a podcaster, he's a teacher, and just so many wonderful things. So I, I'm really excited to get into this episode and for you to learn more about Chris. So let's get to it.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:11:11       Chris gay brother, thank you so much for being here on the show, man. I'm so excited to have you here. Absolutely. Happy to be here. So we have so much as we were just talking about for the top of the show here. It's kind of creepy. We're just talking about how much we have in common. Yeah, it's kinda creepy. A little bit. You're totally like my brother from another mother. That's right. Me not. I'm going to have to call mom after this. We even look kind of familiar. Mom, talk about this. So speaking of mom, yeah. Where's the, where's the best place to begin your story of being a creative

Chris Martin:       00:11:54       And all the work that you do supporting creatives. Oh man. I mean the origin story. I want to say that it's not that interesting because I grew up out on, we had like eight or 10 acres, I can't remember which. It was a good stretch of land and I didn't have a lot of friends around and so I was kind of a, a loner kid and I liked heavy metal music and video games. And we at some point my mom got a computer, one of those old things that sat on your desk, giant monitor and all that. And we would rent video games and programs at the local computer store and they would come on five and a quarter floppy disks. And there was something so magical about that. And I, I look back on those times just kind of sitting around by myself, just figuring out life, figuring out how to make things work and how to beat that damn level on that video game. I mean, I would yell at the TV often and, and I kind of laugh at myself. The fact that I would yell at a TV for a video game not playing the way I wanted it to. I remember those days. Yeah. Yesterday.

Chris Martin:       00:13:11       I'm curious, did you grow up in like a creative household? Was that something that was like nurtured for you and supported? You know, it's, it's kinda hard to put myself back there sometimes. Cause I, I try to think about what was, what, what were the arts, you know, really fostered in the house. And I think in many ways they were, I remember really wanting a guitar at some point. I wanted to learn how to play guitar and you know, one Christmas I got a guitar, you know, I wanted to be in band in school. And so mom would always find a way that to have, you know, a trumpet, you know, and, and musical instruments. And music was always readily available. I remember we had a, a very legal video collection back in the VHS days of movies from the local video store. You know, this is pre Napster days when we, we recorded our entertainment ourself and, you know, get the little do Hickey that that allows you to dial in and out the copyright protection and all that stuff. It was a different time. And but I think in a lot of ways the arts were very much fostered because, you know, it's, it was just always there. I don't remember it not being there. And yeah, I think that would be the best way. And, and I would always be interested in things even way back then. And I always begged for, you know, things in the store. Yes, I remember that. Yeah. I remember those

Gabe Ratliff:       00:14:52       Days. I remembered I, I, I ended up writing about this on my, about bio, just like I had kind of a weird childhood cause my, my brother and sister moved when I was young to Florida. So I kind of became an only child all of a sudden. And as I was getting old enough to, you know, have imagination and like enact things and do things. And I remember, you know, just doing these stories down in the basement with like paper wrapping tubes, you know, saving damsels in distress. And I remember having like full on storylines with my GI Joes, you know, like love stories with like the female versions and you know or the female characters and stuff and having all these different storylines I was creating in my brain. Did you do stuff like that growing up too?

Chris Martin:       00:15:44       Oddly enough, no. It's funny because when I think back, I'm like, the imagination that I had was always one of escape. I dreamed of like being in rock bands so that I could be almost adored on stage. And, and so like I, I just remember walking around outside listening to music and being like, I'm going to be that person on stage and, and I'm going to be, you know, famous and, and all of these things are being noticed and, and all these things. And it's just like, why? Why would I want that? But at the same time, that's what I wanted in a lot of ways. And that's where my imagination went of just like, you know, crafting these situations of imagining myself, you know, on stage playing music or whatever. Yeah. Did you end up learning an instrument? Yeah. I ended up playing guitar, so I got a guitar when I was 16.

Chris Martin:       00:16:40       I played trumpet middle school, high school for eight years, and then it was around, I think a sophomore in high school when I'm like, you know, iron man doesn't sound the same on a trumpet. Like I tried to learn it on the trumpet and I'm like, man, this, this doesn't just does not sound the same. And so, you know, I, I, a friend of mine got a guitar and I would go over to his house and like, we didn't know anything about how to play a guitar. And fortunately he lived even more remotely than I did. And so, you know, we would just crank up the amp and hit strings and it sounded horrible, but it was awesome. There's just a punk band, that's all. Yeah, we weren't even a punk band. We were like, yeah, it was, it was awful. But it was great because what a great way to figure out how to get things to work, how to, how to get the sound that you wanted and all of the things that go into guitar playing part from just the equipment itself.

Chris Martin:       00:17:35       Do you still have, do you still play? Not as much as I'd like to. I have on the other side of the door, I have my two guitars and, and you know, the, the HVAC specialist was like, Hey, nice guitar man. I'm like, thanks. Then thinking in my head, when was the last time I played that I used to record music as well? Kind of, you know, that was really enjoyable. I used to jam with some friends, but I mean that was the extent of my playing. I dropped out of college the first round to be in a rock band, but that didn't really work out. So that was the only stint of time that I was in a band. What kind of band was it? Well, we called ourselves a rock band, but when I listened to the music, I don't know if I would call it a rock band. I mean it had elements of Jimmy page rush but also like some folk music feeling to it. And so it was really hard to kind of pinpoint the genre. But it was, it was a pretty interesting experience to, to go from living in a dorm room to living on this guy's couch, right. To things we'll go to. Yeah.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:18:45       For our art. One of the things that I love about you and that I, this is such a strong kindred spirit is that we both share this love for all kinds of creativity. And I love how you're, you're not just a creative, you're also supporting creatives, but I'm really curious, is there, do you have a favorite medium out of everything? I mean, you've played guitar or you've, you know your web designer, video producer. I mean, there's so many things under, under your belt. Is there anything that stands out as the favorite? I mean, the favorite is just whatever's the favorite of the day, honestly.

Chris Martin:       00:19:28       Cause it's like I, I love the talking medium. I didn't think I would love to talk, but then the more that I talked, I'm like, Oh, I actually really like this. But then you have that moment. Or I have that moment when I'll make a film or I'll watch a film and I'll just be like, yes, that's it right there and then I'll try something else. So it's like, I'll just be moving around to whichever is the one that grabs my attention, that grabs my interest because I, I just, I refuse to almost settle and refuse to, to, to pick one. And I'm not sure where this comes from, but at the same time, it's just like, I like them all. They're all just so rich and full of possibility. There's so many amazing people working in all of these different mediums. And I get bored really, really, really freely, easily. And, and the, the struggle is like if I get too locked into one, I'll actually start to physically rebel from the, my own business because I'm just boring myself with the work that I'm doing. So I, I've almost had to have multiple mediums to have mechanisms in place to allow me to survive.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:20:49       Yeah. I, man, my dad's probably listening grow up. I mean that's another thing I totally connected with cause I also get bored. And I think that's where it's the same thing comes from for me, how I recognize that so much in you is, is that we both share that, you know, that passion for just creativity as a whole. Yeah. And you essentially live the line that I coined Longo that I shared on your show about drawing your life and not tracing it. You're drawing your life and not tracing it. You're giving yourself these parameters that allow you to have this, this breadth as opposed to parameters that are so tight that you're just like suffocating. And like you said, you're rebelling against your own business. I love that. Yeah. I don't, I don't love the aspect that that is there, but I love, cause I don't love that when it happens either. Right? Like I, when I, when I started feeling, I'm like, what am I doing? I'm captaining my own ship. Yeah. And yet

Chris Martin:       00:21:57       Why? I think one of the hardest things that I struggle with is why can't I run and operate my own business the way that I know I operate as a human being? Because if I'm going to try to pretend to be someone else, I'm going to make a really horrible company. And, and I think I have made horrible company in the past because of that, because I wasn't operating under my own rules for my life and, and even like the things that I know about myself from just time and experience and strength finders and all of the things that I've, I've tested myself for over the years, you know, I what why not incorporate those things into what I'm doing as opposed to, but I have to be like this person over here who's got the nine steps to success.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:22:54       Right? What are those nine Oh wait, no, I should say it this way. Tim, tell me what are those nine things I do. I get two for the price of one

Chris Martin:       00:23:11       Sign up for my email newsletter and I'll tell you I had nine convenient emails with a 10th one with an ad for my course that is $9,000 there's no cynicism at all in what I'm saying. No cynicism at all.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:23:30       So let's, let's go down this path for a minute. Cause this is, this is very valuable when you're looking at, you're talking about your, your business

Chris Martin:       00:23:46       Was, there was a time where your business was in a place where you could have been or perhaps you were creating and developing and running a horrible company because you were, you know, following those nine steps from somebody else or not establishing these checks and balances for yourself and like checking into those assessments that you've been doing with yourself, which is so great. You brought that up. My last episode was with Lisa Foster who does assessments and she did mine live and I, it was so much fun to just hear all of the stuff she about each assessment and like all the stuff about yourself where you're like, what? And I'd even done them, you know, but to hear someone who coaches this and like unpacks it, for you to just sit there and absorb it and be like, Whoa. I mean it's just so great to get that knowledge about yourself.

Chris Martin:       00:24:37       I, I love that you're tapped into that as well. That being said, where did you, what was it that happened where you started to step back and reevaluate that business that may have been horrible and where you started to step into your own power? What was that like and how did that happen? It's, it's been incredibly long drawn out, painful and boring journey to get to where I'm at today. And, and I say that because like, I don't know if there was one thing or one moment, but I feel like it's been just a cascading amount. Let's just a cascading amount of stuff that that's happened over the years. And I think the catalyst was, I would say, I think the end of, I'm going to, I'm horrible with dates sometimes. I had to write some dates down before we started, but I think it was the end of 2017 and I had had some client work that just went sideways and normally I can handle those sideways moments.

Chris Martin:       00:25:50       Okay. Because you know, that's what happens sometimes when you're in business for yourself. Things go sideways and you have to deal with them and move on. But for whatever reason, just all of these things started happening at the same time. And my company wasn't anchored in a vision. It was just anchored in whatever I was into at that time. And, and so I think it went sideways because I wasn't anchored in some vision that I was pursuing. And so I quit. I didn't actually close the business down, but I, I literally quit. I looked for a job and I found a job and was working for another company for awhile. And it was in that moment where I'm working at a great company, I'm making really good money, and I still hated life because I still wasn't following a vision. I was, I was working for another company that had a great vision.

Chris Martin:       00:26:49       They had great staff. I really do like the people that were working there, but I was an asshole and it was a remote company. So it's not like you can like vent to someone. You're basically just stewing in a pressure cooker of your own world and that's what was happening. And I came out the other end of that experience going, I don't know what I'm doing next, but whatever is next has to be my vision. Like I can't just keep running after someone else who has a vision for work or creativity or life. And so if you actually go back and listen to getting work to work in those times, they're actually really hard and painful to listen to because I talked through the experience and I talked through the emotion of just like, I don't know if I'm going to do this anymore and, and, and I put it out there because I'm sure hopefully someone would get something from it. But if anything I did, because I'm talking through that, that frustration of just like, I can't keep doing this. And then I turned 40 and I'm like, I really can't keep doing this. I need to grow up. But only enough.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:28:03       Yes, I was going to, yes, I was going to totally call you on that. I've been thinking about doing this same thing that you're doing because I

Chris Martin:       00:28:15       Quitting and getting a job.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:28:18       No, the, the, the monologues that you do, you know, and like speaking your truth, right. Speaking because that is, it is valuable and I love having these conversations because we get to share in this as creative entrepreneurs, we get to share this journey together. You know, hearing about wanting it to tug, wanting a guitar and learning trumpet and iron man didn't work. And you know love for video games and cinema and there's like so many things that we get to share in this creative path, but we also have to share in the negative things, right? And especially in this world of Instagram and Facebook and everybody showing their best selves a lot. That's one of the things that's really come up for me because the book I've been reading recently is a Bernay Brown and an around her work with vulnerability and you know that that that's one of the things I think is so powerful about this work that we do is that we're, we're pulling back the layers of ourselves, but we're also being able to do that with each other.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:29:30       Like as we interview each other. And I just feel like the thing I love about what you're doing on, on, on top of that is Al also taking on this journey and it's been inspirational to me because I've been thinking as I've been processing this work around vulnerability and how that really, to me that was the key. I thought around doing the show right. And being able to have this conversation with you, right. As to what better way to get connected to somebody in there, you know, if you want to go this way, but like to them as a brand because we are, we are, that's been a tough thing to grab, to like, like acknowledge. Yes, we really are our own brand, especially if you're doing your own business. And as as, because we're now showcasing ourselves socially even further, we become a brand for sure.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:30:26       And taking people on that journey that you're doing. I just think it's, it's, there's so many levels to that that I think are amazing. I mean, it's, it's admirable. It's brave, you know, to like be doing that. And it's been an inspiration to me as a colleague, you know, to, to be like, wow, that's so great that you're doing that. You know, because some people, they do it in this way, and we talked about this before we started recording, right? Like some people do it in this like, I mean, you mentioned a minute ago, right? It's like the nine steps to this and here's how you Mark it and blah, blah, blah, you know, and it gets really office speak [inaudible] but to be doing what you're doing in such an authentic way and being vulnerable like that every week and the work that you're doing, it's just adding on to what you're doing creatively. Right. And like how you're evolving as a human, not just as a creative. I just think it's Admiral. I just wanted to to say that to you.

Chris Martin:       00:31:31       Well I appreciate that cause there are times where it doesn't feel like I'm brave being or even being authentic. Sometimes I just feel like I like, well I got to get an episode out. What am I going to talk about? I'm like, I don't know, the Well's dry. And last week in particular was really hard because you know, Monday was a great day. I don't know why but like my Mondays are always just like, like top to bottom task list, done, done, done, done, done. And then it's diminishing returns the rest of the week. And last week in particular it was just like, I don't know if it was just my, my time of the month or whatever. Cause I, I, you know, it happens. Like I, I really do believe that, that I have a moment in my month where I'm just like not productive, not in the Headspace for it.

Chris Martin:       00:32:22       And last week I just wasn't having it. I'm just like, I'm just wrestling with everything. I can't get anything done. Yeah, I'm going to get the podcast out, the newsletter out. But at the same time I'm just like beating myself up inside because I'm like, why can't I be in control of of this feeling enough to get my client work done to go to the groups, the meetings, the networks, why? Why can't I control this enough? And then I just have to slow down, stop, take a breath and realize it's just one week. Like what about the week before where you did this, this, this and this or a month before. And so it's like these head games of like, you're not good enough. You're not, you're not measuring up to what you should be doing right now. And it's just like, I dunno. I think that's the difference between, you know, vulnerability in a short term sense versus a longterm sense. You know, like if you're being vulnerable in the short term sense, are you really being vulnerable? Can you be vulnerable in the short term versus, I don't quite know where I'm going with this thought, but I mean that's just kind of where my brain is at the moment of just like what does vulnerability look like when you're having a bad day? But you don't want to always put that out there, you know? How do you balance?

Gabe Ratliff:       00:33:51       Yeah, I mean I, as I said before we started, I had a bad day not too long ago and I,

Gabe Ratliff:       00:34:00       I went on, I went on the, the book for just a moment and I, I did the, I did the poop emoji background and was just like, the universe is testing my resolve [inaudible] and you know, just like crap day. But I still, I still said at the end of it, you know, love and light, you know, just like I'm still here, I'm still putting love and light out. Cause that, that's part of my mission every day is to like be the, it's the same work you're doing, right? It's like putting out positive, supportive, valuable information and, and, and stories every day, every week, you know? And that's the work we're doing. It's, it's hard. Yeah. And, but I was like, still, I'm like, I'm still here. It's just a really shitty day. And then I had done a parentheses Merck fuck mercury in Richard Craig cause it was that time and whether you believe it or not, it was just that time and it was hitting. And so I totally connect with that. I wanted to ask though on a personal note is that it fell a podcast or like how, how do you manage that when you're, you're coming up, you've set this, you've set this level of you know, content that you're going to put out. And so you're, you know, you do two monologues, one interview a week. Where does that come from when you're bringing it from within and not having a, a dialogue like this?

Chris Martin:       00:35:39       Oh man. I mean the interviews are great on one sense because you're kind of at the mercy of what the other person's going to talk about. I mean, as you know, you're like, okay, I see. I have a level of expectation with this interview based upon the person across from me. But when you're doing monologues, there's a real period of self-reflection where you're like, what am I thinking about? What am I feeling at this moment? What am I wrestling with? What am I pondering? What am I curious about? So for example, I have a monologue coming out tomorrow and as I'm kind of going through the writing process, I'm like, well, what am I going to talk about? And I can feel just a really strong cynical force in my spirit right now. I'm just like, I'm tired of the emails for, you know, from all the gurus saying, just do this.

Chris Martin:       00:36:33       What am I going to talk about? And it's just like, well, I don't want to be another guru just saying do this. And so I just kind of was thinking about an episode from last week where I was talking about how do you manage your knowledge? How do you manage what you know, what would that system look like if you created it? And I'm like, well, what are some of the components of this system then? And I'm like, well, how do you take an emotion, like a cynical feeling and put that into your creation machine so that you can create art with it. And as opposed to just letting it devour you emotionally because you're just like, ah, I hate what this person is doing. And you're like, well, what are you going to do with that then? Are you going to create with it or are you just going to whine about it?

Chris Martin:       00:37:23       And so that's kind of like where I'm going with the episode and this is that. Then I'm thinking about like energy and I'm thinking about waste. What is the waste, the digital waste of all of the things that we consume. Like I watched three documentaries over the weekend, two of them were fantastic, one of them was waste worthy, you know, so it's like, okay, well what do I do with the waste of that experience? How do I let that fuel what I know? How do I let that fuel the creation process? And so that's kind of where I'm headed with the episode. And so it's like, it turns into this bigger thing because I start connecting it to things that I'm thinking about, but also having that connective tissue of the emotion, that experience of just like, ah, enough with the emails. Yes. I know I've been unsubscribing from so many.

Chris Martin:       00:38:19       You know it's funny you brought that up because that is powerful and I love where you're taking that creatively and just ho I mean holistically really, right? Because it's about what you're doing in life and how you're managing that creatively in your work. Yeah. And, and then also on the next level, we're getting Metta. You're also, it's also what you're putting back out [inaudible] and that ripple effect that occurs to people listening to your show. Right. And like how that they're taking it and then they're taking your show [inaudible] speaking to these other shows that could potentially be waste and then wanting to create a show that you're putting out there that people can take, they can actually be valuable. Right? Right. Not be wasteful. So that gets into this like really bad a thing and you're like, wait, my brain hurts. But that's like really awesome.

Chris Martin:       00:39:17       So what came up from you for you around this documentary that was wasteful? Like where are you now falling with like what ensued for you around how you can take that and then make something valuable or creative with it? I think if I were, I don't want to say the name of the documentary because I, I really do think that there was an element of, of, of pride with the filmmakers. So it's like I get it from like a creative standpoint where I understand logically what they were doing, but there was something about it that rang false or rang almost like they were creating something for stock footage. It, there was like, it looked like stock footage and some spots and kind of like staged, it just felt staged in an authentic and a couple of moments and to, so to me, why consider that waste is like, it comes back to authenticity and the whole point of a documentary is in many ways to be an authentic capturing of a moment.

Chris Martin:       00:40:26       And, and when documentaries are inauthentic, it, it may still be a documentary, but then it feels and acts and behaves differently than you take an authentic feeling. Like the biggest little farm on Hulu that is one of the most beautifully shot, beautifully told stories that I've experienced in a very long time. And what I loved about that film is that they wanted to, to not just create a record of what they were doing on their farm, but creative natural, a nature documentary that's wasn't a nature documentary. And so then it's, that's not necessarily waste, but then I take that experience and put it into this creation machine of just like, okay, how can we take this original genre and play with it, mess with it, change it up, and it creates some questions that you can ask yourself in the creative process of going, am I just going to do what I know the way that I know how to do it or am I going to allow myself to play, try things differently and make a lot of mistakes and potentially find something amazing? Or is it just going to be a big pile of waste that's going to get filtered out and an algorithm or someone's attention.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:41:53       Fascinating. This is getting deep. I love it. I love it. Let's go continue down this rabbit hole. Like what, what does that mean for you around looking at the w like waste and how we manage that and taking this particular example of a, without saying what it is like, will that give it away or can you speak to like what it did for you?

Chris Martin:       00:42:21       The, the, the documentary I didn't like or the, the one that I liked,

Gabe Ratliff:       00:42:26       The one that you didn't like, what, where this is led you with this topic around waste and like how you're managing it for yourself as well as how you're going to speak to it for others. But, and I don't want to like take away from your episode that you're, you're helping me curious. Okay.

Chris Martin:       00:42:42       Well, it's interesting because as I, when I feel upset about something or I have that moment of like, Oh, I didn't like that at all. Like what do you do with that emotion? Like, as a creative person, what do you do with the, the negative emotions? What do you do with? And, and unfortunately I'm labeling them as waste in this, in this analogy, because oftentimes in the business system that we live in, we label anything that isn't positive or successful as waste. It is the waste of the system. If it's not making money, it's not good. But you know, waste in and of itself does serve a purpose. If we have too much waste in our bodies, we get sick. We can tell a lot about our health by how our waste smells or looks or functions. Oh, this is disgusting, man.

Chris Martin:       00:43:51       I'm sorry. But it's so true though. Like we can tell the health of an organism by its waste. Why can't we tell the health of our creativity from our waste? And, and so I have no idea where I'm headed with all of this. But at the same time, that's kinda how my mind works is I start, I, I'll, I'll pinpoint an idea and just start obsessing Lee, thinking about these details to the point of like, if I didn't have a deadline, I would never release something because I would just stay in this moment until I thought of something else. And then I would go think about that and then I would literally be full of ideas

Gabe Ratliff:       00:44:32       That never got done, which is kind of like waste. Yeah. I mean, this echoes back to the episode with Brie noble where she had talked about you had, you had responded and said you really grasped onto the concept of the, the inspiration fault, right? There's like all of these ideas that come up for us as creative entrepreneurs cause we're, that we're visionaries, right? Like we're constantly having these thoughts we're having, we're getting deep like this. You know, and it's funny because this similar topic has been on my mind and what I was thinking about as you were talking about that like this, this how waste is manifested in a Netflix and Amazon and Disney plus world [inaudible] and Google photos and all of these things, right? Like Facebook and all this stuff like digital, when digital occurred for photography, right. People were way less concerned about how many shots they took.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:45:31       Yeah. But then there's all this work on the back end going through it. I remember when I, when I first started to travel, I had a digital camera and that was actually my first digital camera. And I remember I was just like, you know, I was capping off shots everywhere. Architecture, you know, street art, street photography, nature, you name it, my wife, you know, I was shooting all kinds of stuff. Right, right. Because I was like, ah, it's cool. I got a SD card. It can handle it, you know? And it's the same thing now, you know? And it, it really struck a nerve when you're talking about how waste can be productive. But it's interesting also the flip side of that, how waste can be, I mean it's big, this frivolity that can occur because of the six 99 a month subscription to all of this content that's like millions of dollars to make and hundreds of thousands of jobs to create that could just flop and then they just move on.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:46:38       Right. And we'll never know that it flops right. And there, you know, and you can watch this documentary and be like, totally didn't hit the Mark for me and it felt disingenuine right. And like there were these inauthentic, you know, and staged was the language you were using. Right. And yeah, it so it didn't hit the Mark and that's you're, you're probably not alone. There were probably several people that watched that. Right. Cause they were definitely, I remember when I was younger and I went to, was in film school, I remembered being like, we have got to raise the intelligence level of cinema and then that happened and then everyone also elevated as a, as a, as a viewer, the audience got smarter. And so now it's actually pushed storytelling to such a degree. And now because of technology getting cheaper and people being able to, you know a person who gets into the, I mean, he got into the profession, but then starting a farm and being like, well, I know how to do it.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:47:46       I've got the camera. I'm going to make this documentary. You know, more and more people are doing that. You've got Instagram influencers all over the place making thousands of dollars shooting themselves and all of these different places, you know, and it's crazy how that's evolved content. Yeah. But at the same time, I mean, this same thing came up with music, right? Like with SoundCloud and Spotify, right? Like there's so many people now that are producing music, but that doesn't mean that music got better. Right. You know, that doesn't mean that it's elevated. It just means that there's a whole lot more crap to sift through [inaudible]

Chris Martin:       00:48:21       And we're not necessarily trained to sift through. We don't really have a refined filter as a society anymore because anyone is a critic. So who are the rhythms? Right? Algorithms are the critics. Yeah, but that's not necessarily the case. Like just because something is chosen by an algorithm doesn't mean that it's good or bad.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:48:48       It's just following your behavior, but it's like who's leading whom at that point. Right, exactly. It gets into this egg chicken thing. That's right. Yeah. That's fascinating to me, man. I love where you're taking this because I think it's so, I mean, it's so relevant.

Chris Martin:       00:49:03       I don't know about you, but I really wrestle with the difference between being a constructive questioning human being and a curmudgeon. It's like, well, you're just old Chris. Like you grew up in a different era. You think differently, so you're just not with the times and it's just like, well, maybe there. Where's the line between being with the times and passively consuming junk food in our media

Gabe Ratliff:       00:49:36       Hear! Hear! Hear! Hear!

Gabe Ratliff:       00:49:39       Now. How do you, let's spin that back to like how you handle your own content.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:49:48       Do you have checks and balances for like what do you, do you have anything in place to kind of help you stay in that realm of like we were just talking about with value and not being wasteful, right? Like how, I mean you were talking about how this is great, right? Because a moment ago we were talking about how we can have some tough weeks to come up with content, right? But then we've established these parameters, these deadlines that we keep each, keep ourselves accountable for putting things out to share this journey and share the value. So then how does that play into these parameters and checks and balances that we can create for ourselves as content creators to not be wasteful?

Chris Martin:       00:50:33       Yeah, it's a great question and it's, it's one that I'm thinking about even right now as we wrap up 2019 and go into 2020. It's like, do I keep doing three episodes a week? At what point am I either repeating myself or creating something that no one wants to listen to? And, and that's, I think the harder question to ask. At what point do I alter my own creation because it's too much. And, and I remember an interview with Verna Hertzog, I think it was on Mark Marin show, where he said, I can create films faster than they can release them. And I'm like, wow, that's amazing to me because he creates a lot of work. And at a certain point would he be as prolific of a filmmaker if the industry moved as fast as he did or would he just be putting out crap? Now arguably some people might say it's all crap, but at the same time I do think at that level of just like, where's the balance? Do I really need to be concerned with that balance or do I just ride the wave until I get knocked off and I have to go paddle out again to use another metaphor.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:51:55       Yeah. Well, and I was also thinking about how, you know, at the top of the show we were talking about the different mediums that have also allowed you that breadth in your business to also not get stuck. Right. And start to feel closed in and, and, and, and start to be distressed in your own business and start to rebel against your own business. So I wonder, I wonder how that also plays a part, right? Because he is a director. Yeah. And that's his, you know, he makes films and that's his thing. He doesn't do other stuff, you know, and so, and I, and you know, he, he does interviews, but he doesn't interview people. I mean, I guess, you know, for documentaries, he does, right. But that's part of his making his film. And so I wonder for people listening to this who only have the one medium say they're a painter, right. And that's like the only thing they do where they're not like us who are like, we like lie. Right. which again, I, you know, I used to think that was a curse, but for me it's right. And for you it's not,

Chris Martin:       00:53:07       I still think it's a curse. I know, seriously, I wish that I could just pick one thing and be okay with it at the end of the day. And, and I find that that when I have those moments where I pick, there's a reason why I ask almost every creative entrepreneur that I interview about the generalist specialist conversation is because I think sometimes I'm hunting for the right recipe to follow so that I can pull it off so that I can finally just pick one thing and like be okay.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:53:41       But I just, I can't turn me off though. Right, right. Well and I feel like, I mean, cause even I had a similar journey with you where I was called to podcasting and interesting use of words. What's, Oh yeah, you were called to it. Yeah. That's awesome. You know with us both doing video and having that kind of similar correlation to audio, it was yet another thing to jump into. But then for me and I, it's, this seems very much true for you as well, especially with all the work that you do, which I'm segwaying is so much more fulfilling to me around storytelling and intimate connection with others. Yeah. You know, for us it's with creative entrepreneurs and creative professionals. But

Gabe Ratliff:       00:54:42       In, and this is, this is part of what's been coming up for me a lot as we're winding down, not 2019 and the decade right is, is as the studies are showing through social media, we are potentially being less connected. Doing podcasting for me has been the way to be more connected and to get really clear about this kind of intimate conversation. Like where we can really start to have deeper conversations and like unpack yeah. The things that we're going through individually but do it together as opposed to just showcasing what we're doing socially, you know, and like being disconnected. What Oh man. Are your thoughts about that?

Chris Martin:       00:55:26       I totally forgot to Instagram live this. I'm so sorry. I've already got it going by the way. Oh yeah. I mean connection is, is interesting. I mean what does it mean to be human when you know, we don't have to be like we, we don't have to be human. We can literally project a false vision for who we are as a person and never have to like live up to that. Like, we can create an an entirely different life online than we would in person. And I think that's probably one of the biggest things that I've wrestled with. And I think a lot of my clients wrestle with that too, because, you know, where's the line between who you are and who you now digitally and humanly

Gabe Ratliff:       00:56:29       Well, and I love the memes that come up. There was one recently where there's, you know, a dog on each side of this glass door. Have you seen that one? I haven't. No. It's like this is what it's like if you said what you would say on social media and you're in person. Oh. And there's like this little dog just going off on the other side of this glass door to this big dog and then the door gets pushed open by one of the bike. The dog gets it open and that dog, the other dog could totally come in. The one that was just going off barking and it just stops and like walks away. It's like that's what, there's so many people barking, whatever it is. And it's like they can do it in that state, right? Because they've, they're in this safe space where they're not actually in front of that person and they're not having to be accountable for what they're saying cause they can just be unfollowed or you can just close the app.

Chris Martin:       00:57:29       I mean, it would be disingenuous to not bring up the fact that there are good things that come up from social media as well. People who have maybe very real danger in being themselves in real life. They're able to be them, their true self digitally because they don't have the physical harm that maybe they would in real life. And so, I mean, there are those positives, but I think what I'm speaking to is just, I think for 90% of the people is probably your, you're not going to be in danger if you're your authentic self in real life versus digital. But there are subsets of humanity that, that have very real present danger.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:58:14       Yeah. Well, and I think globally that's been one of the other benefits, right, is that now we have this ability to get information that we used to have kind of hidden from us. We could only get what the news would tell us, right? And now we can actually get from the ground. And I'm definitely not like a dooms day social media, artificial intelligence. Like everything's going to shine that we're all going to die. Get my tinfoil hat on for ya. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I've definitely not that I'm obviously an optimist, but it's just interesting to me. What has come up for me in the doing of this work specific to podcasting is that it's been this beautiful way to be able to connect with another kindred like yourself who's in another state a way, you know, many States away from me and we can have this really great deep conversation about art and creativity and curiosity. Seeing my way along the segway. You know, and we can, we can really dive into these things and you know, I would obviously prefer to do it in person, but to have this access in a world where technology, this is also technology, right? And this is another way we can use technology for the power of good [inaudible]. Yeah. And so that's, I love that we were able to go there for a second.

Gabe Ratliff:       00:59:50       Do you want to grow your creative business but don't know how to market yourself? Do you have something to say? But it felt like you don't have a voice in a world filled with noise. Are you ready to step up as a thought leader in your industry and lead the conversation about the topic you are so passionate about? If so, go to theartful dot co slash podcasting to join one of my three month virtual coaching programs and I'll help you develop your very own artful podcasts. You'll get three 90 minute virtual group coaching sessions, custom email and video support throughout the program. Support and feedback from fellow, our phalange preneurs and your group exclusive access to a private Facebook group for members of the program. Plus a bonus coaching session where we'll celebrate you having your first three episodes of your podcast that are ready to begin promoting for your launch. I offer group coaching and one-on-one options that follow the same curriculum so that you can use whichever option fits your needs the best. If you've been looking for someone to help you get your podcasts out of your head or need help getting a show you've started to develop off the ground and go to the artful.co/podcasting to find out more and schedule a free coaching call with me to talk about the possibilities for your very own artful podcast.

Gabe Ratliff:       01:01:17       You had mentioned about the rolling off of the year into next year and that the, the discovery around how you may end up evolving your show. Where are you with that, this concept of, you know, how many you do a week where you were taking that?

Chris Martin:       01:01:38       I think for now I'll probably keep doing three a week. It does help provide a nice structure to my week. In terms of just I, okay, I know it's Monday, I do this Wednesday, do this Friday I do this. But where I've been really spending a lot of time thinking about is could I do a year theme, a theme that kind of unites the whole year? So, okay, I've got a 52 weeks, three episodes a week, 156 episodes. What is the theme for those 156 episodes? And I think what I'm really leaning towards now is being more human, really getting at the human stories that go into the things that we do. Yeah, we can be on brand, we can be on message, but can we be human? What does it mean to be human? And I keep, I keep bringing that up because that's where I'm really spending a lot of time thinking about is like how do I connect with someone like you? How do I really make sure that it's not a wasteful experience in the moment that we spend together, but also the people that listen to this? And my 10 gentle thinking of just like rabbit hole after rabbit hole after distraction, after distraction. But hopefully there is some value that is found in that as as we nail our segways and hit our points.

Gabe Ratliff:       01:03:08       Yeah. Well and I'm also similar, the detours derails distractions. So hopefully our rabbit holes are coinciding and meeting in places here for people because I, you know, I, I had a, I mean I had so many other questions I had broken out, but I'm really loving where this is taking us. So I thank you. I, that's something that I remember we talked about in my episode about how you work with your interviews. And so I was actually leaving that open to this one for mine with you to see, you know, where it goes. I wanted to ask you, I, I brought up curiosity cause I wanted to use that word specifically because there's a laundry list of things here I'm about to touch on. But I wanted to talk to you about the core of the word curiosity and its meaning and you know, you're committed to the power of curiosity. And the work that you do. And I'm curious like where does that come from for you? Like where, where did that, that commitment and the focus on that specifically come from because that is its own word, separate of like creativity, right? Or where that can take us as artists and creatives. But like where does the, where does the power of, of, and the commitment to curiosity come from?

Chris Martin:       01:04:36       It's a, it's interesting because, you know, if I try to analyze why did I call the things that I do, like three of the things that I do on my website, I'll have curiosity in the name. Yes. And I love interviewing people. I love researching someone and learning about who they are. I get really curious about why they do what they do. And so in that sense, curiosity really makes a lot of sense. I'm really interested in just learning more about things and people and stuff and, and ideas. And I, and I love sitting with people. I, I love the fact that you just let recording go and we talk. I'm, I'm really curious about that. And so for me it's just, I'm curious about so much. Like I used to read the road Atlas as a kid. I was curious about how to get to my hometown from other places. I was curious about the rest of the U S I was curious about the world. I was, I've always been curious about pretty much everything, which, which is a shock, I know to people listening to this because I've pulled in so many directions. But I mean, I, I truly am a very curious person and I just want to know, I really just want to know.

Gabe Ratliff:       01:05:56       So I wanna step back a little bit from that question and there's another question that's been I'm really been curious about asking you [inaudible]

Chris Martin:       01:06:07       Is that was my Google there by the way. That sounded good actually. 

Gabe Ratliff:       01:06:16       I'm curious about when you shifted in your curiosity of making content to the support of creative entrepreneurs. Right? Because we both gone on this path where we shifted from being a creative to supporting others and there's this next level of purpose that's been injected into our business and how we show up. And that's obviously very, very important to both of us. And so I'm curious to be like-minded and, and, and, and have this, both of both of us having this focus on impact [inaudible] where did that come for you and like how did you get driven to that and like how does that stay, cause that's obviously a North star for you. So where does that come up for you?

Chris Martin:       01:07:05       Well, I think it goes back to when I started my business. So just to kind of connect to some of the earlier conversation that we had. So I started my business in 2006 so I'm going on 14 years now. And when I started, I, you know, I just, someone asked if I could make them a logo. Someone asked him if I could make them a website and someone asked me if I could take some product photos further their store and, and so I just, I just started saying yes to all this stuff. So at the same time I didn't really have a North star. I didn't really have a vision for what I was going after. I'm just like, I just want to get paid and you know, you'd go through that. How do I get paid more? You know, that that rabbit hole of Google. And with that I would make advances and then I would burn out and then I'd retreat and then I'd have to figure something else out again. And so it was this recurring pattern of just like go, going towards something failing and going back to where that safe space was, I guess, for lack of better word. And it was around 2016 where I started identifying curiosity is something that was really something that I didn't see in a whole lot of other people.

Chris Martin:       01:08:28       Sure. A lot of people were talking about creativity, but not necessarily curiosity. And I got curious about that. I'm like, well, why? Because curiosity killed the cat. It's sometimes very rude to be curious. Like we are at a Mexican restaurant having dinner the other night and I asked, can I get this particular meat in the burrito? She's like, well, normally we don't serve that meat in that, that burrito dish. So if you don't like it, it's on you. And I just started cracking up. And so I, I was instantly curious about this, the server, this person who were they. And if I were my dad in this situation, I probably would have started asking the questions because my dad is someone that can do that really well. I'm not that great in certain situations, in controlled situations, I'm great. But in those improv moments, I haven't quite learned that art yet.

Chris Martin:       01:09:25       But but it's, it's, there's something that happens. I'll hear something, I'll hear a phrase, I'll, I'll see something and, and I'll just feel my whole body reacting a certain way. I'll, I'll just be like, I'll get really excited and, and I'll just, I'll just want to run over there or, or stop, or I'm doing this in the interview here. Like you'll say something and I'll want to jump in on it immediately. And, and that's, that's just what happens. I think when that curiosity happens. And when I started, it was, I shoved that away or didn't think that it was something to, to, to anchor into. But as I was going through all these negative experiences and following other people's vision when I would come back, then eventually what happens if I chase after this curiosity? What if I let that be a part of my vision? And that's when it started to shift.

Gabe Ratliff:       01:10:25       Yeah. I totally get with that. Now I'm curious about just good to do that please. There's many more to come. I'm interested in how you stay connected to your curiosity. Right? Is there, does it just come naturally or which could be an easy answer or is it something that you, you know, it has to, it takes work, right. To kind of follow those leads. Right. Cause you could be in a place like the Mexican restaurant, right. But then you also know about yourself. That's not the place where I myself would maybe follow that curiosity. I'll just go through the questions in my head. Whereas like you said, your dad would totally go off and totally, yeah. I think mine would do this. Yeah.

Chris Martin:       01:11:15       Our dads are probably best friends and we never knew it. Yeah. It's, it's interesting because I definitely know the, the moments when curiosity arises and I have a choice. Do I follow it or do I just let it move on? And sometimes I just have to let it move on because there's either not time or there's something about this situation or this person that triggered the curiosity that wouldn't dance, that wouldn't follow, that wouldn't go along or I'm not prepared for the conversation that will ensue. So it's just, it really is a gut reaction. Do I think that this is a good idea and more and more what I'm learning to say is yes, it is at the right time and giving my space myself time to, to really be able to allow that curiosity to unfold once that initial hit happens. If that makes sense.

Gabe Ratliff:       01:12:22       Yeah. And, and I'm thinking about that, is that like a physical, you said it's a gut reaction, but does that, like, do you have,

Gabe Ratliff:       01:12:33       You know, cause you spent, you mentioned about the restaurant and knowing that about yourself. So I'm curious, do you have the physical, I've been going through this with my life coach. Yeah. Where she [inaudible] around mind, body, spirit healing. Her name's a noose cause she's actually on the show as well. And so for me, I have sometimes trouble checking in with myself on where my instinct is, like what my instincts telling me. Sometimes I'm like up in my head a lot or I'm processing things. I'm, Oh you know, I can overprocess some things sometimes. Oh yeah. And you know, it's like when you're doing something that you love. Like if I'm out and I'm traveling and I'm shooting street art in Spain, that for me is like heaven and I am like checked out. And so I can be checked into that. But when we're doing professional work, there's this whole different element to it, right? Like when we're working with a client, we're getting paid and there's like deadlines and all these things, even with what we're doing with our shows. And so I'm curious about, but I'm curious about how you like check back in to check in with that or is that literally just like it just comes from you?

Chris Martin:       01:13:44       I think there's a tension that the curiosity really creates. And the, and the tension is that sense of self awareness, being able to read myself. But then the tension comes with whether I allow myself to be curious or not. Cause I think in the past I did not allow myself to be curious because I had to be like everyone else. Well in order to get noticed you have to have this type of work or do this type of thing or say this generic phrase so that search engine optimization will love you. And, but I would feel that rejection was like, ah. Surely there's another way. And I think, I think for me curiosity is a form of rebellion where I'm able to say, how can I do something that's different? How can I do something that's more me different from another? But so, but I, but authentic to me. And so curiosity is what allows me to rebel in a healthy way. But also dive deep, dive deep into the things that make us human. Dive deep into the stories, the stories that we tell ourselves, the stories that are injected in our art, the stories that are injected in a place. And you can't have any of that if you're not curious.

Chris Martin:       01:15:21       You're just a cog and a machine if you don't have curiosity, but such a pretty cog.

Chris Martin:       01:15:35       Did you just do Gurmukhi no, that was my own stupid voice. I was like, or is it Yoda dues? Yeah. we were watching a movie recently that had Frank Oz in it. We're like, that's Frank Oz. Yes. He's still acting. Ah, we were so blessed. We didn't even know it. So the thought that just came up to me, the question, I, I'm, I, I'm not going to say the word again. I'm going to, I'm going to hold off. Do it. Do it. Do it. [inaudible] Kids SMR. The curious. Curious. I'm curious. So what I was, what the question and I had that popped up for me is, do you have something that you do? Hmm. It's just for you to, to check into your own creativity. [inaudible] I know. I switched to the another seat. Oh, that's good. That's good. I have really liked to draw. I, I tell myself that I'm not a very good artist, but I love it. I don't allow myself enough time though to do that. And I also, I do spend a lot of time writing connecting with where I'm at. And so I think those are two ways that I've, I've learned to kind of tap into my creativity. Oh man, what is that called? It's like abstract

Chris Martin:       01:17:06       Intuitive painting. Have you heard of that? No. So it's

Gabe Ratliff:       01:17:10       Abstract, intuitive painting. Yeah. My friend told me about it and I tried it out one night where it's like, where you just, it's not about like painting a thing, it's just abstract. Hmm. You can probably handle that, right? Yeah, I sucked. I'm the same. I sucked at painting or I suck at painting. And so I was like, Hey, I'm just gonna like take a canvas and like put paint up on it, you know? And it ended up being this really beautiful, you know, I just had a glass of wine, put some chill music on and I just hung out and painted and it didn't have a purpose. It just was letting, it was abstract so it didn't have this, I didn't have to like have something painted that was like a dragon or a person or whatever. It was just color and I had it. It was more about movement and color and it was super therapeutic. And so I just thought I'd mentioned it because it was kind of a similar place of being personal and creative and like wanting to just do something for yourself. Well, and I think that's an incorrect,

Chris Martin:       01:18:14       Really important to learn how to do for yourself as a creative entrepreneur or creative professional is you, you need your own outlets that aren't tied to a deadline, that aren't tied to a client, that aren't tied to anything other than it makes you laugh, it makes you cry, it makes you just check out for a little bit. Because I think too often we, we live in the illusion that everything must be for sale, that everything must have market value when in reality, not everything has market value. Not everything is meant to have market value. And we're seeing that now coming back to all the streaming platforms, that horrible song on SoundCloud that doesn't have market value nor should it until they get to the point where you know, they, they pound out the, the, the demos a little bit more, you know, but as an hours if that, I mean sometimes it's just like, well that was your first show. You're not going to sell a million records off your first show.

Gabe Ratliff:       01:19:18       Right. Yeah. So I want to switch gears now to, as we're, I'm going to start winding this down here, but I want to take some time here to touch on. We talked about the multiple things that you have that you offer involving curiosity. So I wanted to start with the curiosity killers. I was wondering if you could talk about that.

Chris Martin:       01:19:42       I wanted to do like an email series where it was you sign up and you get daily content that addresses something that kills your curiosity. And I think I did seven because you know, the seven deadly sins and then I'm like, ah, the seven deadly curiosity killers and, and so there, there was definitely that component. And, and it sprung from a conversation that I had with a friend over coffee and she was talking about curiosity or creativity killers. And I'm like, Oh, I'll tie it in with my love for curiosity. And so that, that is what that ended up being. Now I know you also teach workshops. I was wonder if you could talk about that. Cause I mean you've been doing those for a minute. So I started teaching at the college level in 2012. And so one of the things that's kind of created an anchor was this ability to teach people starting out along the creative journey.

Chris Martin:       01:20:46       And along the way I'm like, Oh, it'd be cool to be able to do workshops for people as well because not that not that community, not that college is good or bad, just some people aren't motivated. Occasionally you get a very motivated student, but by and large you have maybe 10% are really motivated. 90% are just there. And I, I'm saying that as a professor and instructor and as a student, you know, I'm just sometimes I'm just not there. But what I, what I discovered is that in a workshop you are flipping that ratio to 90% of the people are motivated and 10% are just there. And so that's what I'm loving about workshops is that you're seeing a greater return of interest and value in what you're teaching. People are taking it and running with it and doing things with it. Why do you think that is?

Chris Martin:       01:21:52       Why do you think workshops are flipping it? The 90 and 10? I think it's easy. Here you go. I think it's easier to create a niche experience with a workshop than like a college degree and it takes less time. So a workshop, four hours, two hours, eight hours and you're done. And you can take everything that you've learned and move on with it as opposed to 16 courses spread across, you know, 16 or 10 weeks of course, hundred and 60 weeks. I mean that's, I mean two to three years of your life and the industry moves so fast. Now that you've already updated Adobe creative cloud 70 times and illustrators still doesn't work. But I think with workshops, so it allows you to refine your content. It allows you to connect your content to an audience and I think it allows you to, I think, find the heavily, highly motivated people.

Chris Martin:       01:23:06       I'm seeing this shift in how we are engaging with whether it's teaching a workshop or coaching or what have you, that it's starting to go more experiential. Yes. And I was curious what your thoughts were around that because that's something that's been coming up for me a lot lately in like how I'm kind of looking at how I want to evolve in 2020 with, yeah. With that work. That's great. I think things are going experiential because it requires you to go deeper in your material. If you just put a course out there and call yourself a teacher, but you have no engagement with that course or no one's really building off anything with it, or it's not really leading to something, is it really valuable or is it just waste? And, and so I think experiential allows you to quickly also not only create an element where you can get engagement, but I think it also requires you to level the playing field very quickly.

Chris Martin:       01:24:15       It allows you to create an experience where people can come in with knowledge without knowledge and start getting torque. And one of the things that I had noticed, I've taught a lot of different classes at a college. I've taught web design, I've taught HTML, I've taught professional practices, video motion graphics, and the one class that has the most enjoyment from the students and the most enjoyment for me is the teacher is video because there's no prerequisites at the time that I was teaching this class a lot, there was no part two, so it was a one off and it was all experiential. We're not just going to watch movies and learn filmmaking by watching movies. You're going to get a camera in your hand and you're going to start filming yourself or your friends doing things and you're going to learn how to edit it and make a movie out of that. And I think experientially that is a lot more enjoyable than putting on my favorite film and subjecting 20 people to watching my favorite film and we're going to get to that, believe me.

Chris Martin:       01:25:30       Nice. Yeah. It's been something that's been really, I've been stewing on a lot of just around what that looks like and you know, I agree with you. I think it makes you go to a deeper level. It makes you go further down the rabbit hole. Like how can I do this my way? Yeah. What is Chris's way? Yeah. And the interesting thing too, sorry to cut you off. The interesting thing about a workshop, whether it's digitally or remotely or in person, is that you don't have to come up with all of the content and just deliver it and hope that by giving all of the stuff that maybe this will resonate with this group, this will resonate with this group. And, and you're almost, you know, spraying and praying with your content. You're able to create space and room for someone else to fill in the gaps and experientially or even just asking a question, it's so hard to ask a question in asynchronous time because then you have to wait. Whereas in a moment like this, you can ask a question, you can put a tube of paint in their hand and give them a canvas and tell them to paint,

Chris Martin:       01:27:01       Which, which would you rather have, right? Yeah. I want the tube of paint in my hand and someone to say go because then you can ask the questions after the fact, not beforehand and it can live on, I mean, one of the, one of the hugest challenges and issues that I see just with all of this stuff is what's going to stand the test of time.

Chris Martin:       01:27:29       Are we going to be watching the Irishman in 20 years? Like we're watching mean streets? I don't know

Gabe Ratliff:       01:27:42       Which. Yes. I mean that's totally echoing back to what we talked to earlier, right? I mean it's, I remember the story of, we were at dinner at my, my brother and sister in laws and it was back when I was a web designer as well. And they are in the for many years they were both in the art museum space, right. And like galleries. And

Gabe Ratliff:       01:28:13       I remember her, you know, there's this, this tactility to a lot of art, you know, paintings and you know, printed photography and all of these things, right. Sculptures. And we had this conversation about, you know, me doing web design and it being this thing that lived on the internet, right? Like there's no tactile, there's no tangible, there's no tangibles with the word. I mean there's nothing tangible about the art. She was like, so if the internet went down, all of the work you've ever done would never exist. Right. It wouldn't exist anymore. And I was like, you're totally right. And I remembered, I just like sat there and was like yeah. It's depressing isn't it? Yeah. It was like questioning my entire being as an artist, cause I was like, she's so right.

Gabe Ratliff:       01:28:59       And it sucked to acknowledge that. I was like, wow, it's true. You know, unless you've like printed off the website and they're like, look at it, it's, it's not there anymore. And so there's, it's interesting because we're kind of in that same place, but your comment about the Irishmen, right? Again, I think similarly to what we were talking about earlier about podcasting and like this connection that we can have and be able to have these deeper conversations and the evolution that we're going through together, right, and that we can share in this moment and how that can support others, how they can, they're not alone. They can follow along in this same pursuit of success and evolution and growth and development and creativity and curiosity. All of these things that we're on the same pursuit of, I think there's

Chris Martin:       01:29:45       More at play from the creator standpoint than we give a lot of credit for. We always put audience first and a lot of the stuff that I'll read, but it does start with the creator of the work. If they're not in touch with the duration, if they're not in touch with the message. If they're not in touch with what's going on, no audience is going to be in touch with it.

Gabe Ratliff:       01:30:06       As the creator of the piece. Right. It's like the constant crux of being a creator [inaudible] is tapping into that fulfillment that comes from the process. Yeah. You know, and like what does that look like? And that output, whether you're painting or, I mean, I remember with different mediums throughout my career, certain things, I was like, this is just, I just, I can't do this. It's like too long and like it's like I'm stressed or bored or you know, anxious cause I'm like ready to move on in the process. Whereas like this, I'm like, let's do it. You know, like this is awesome. And to me that's an amazing indicator of you're on the right path then, right? Yeah. And I, yeah, and it's really just around like again, it's like something that, there's so many similarities between us, but then there's like how we each show up and like how each thing is being managed and handled and created and output and the results and everything. It's just fascinating to me, regardless of the medium, you know, that's what makes us all individuals, you know? But it's also how we can share in the path together. So it's just, it's fascinating to me. So I want to move on a little bit further now. You also have curiosity builders. I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit too.

Chris Martin:       01:31:32       At some point, last year I wanted to take the in-person teaching that I was doing and create like an online course system. And so it just kind of came from the idea that the.builders domain existed and I could get curiosity.builders and I'm like, that is a really cool name. And then it kind of transitioned to calling my audience curiosity builders because I want to build people's curiosity. And I, that was kind of that evolution. It wasn't like a, a linear path. It was almost like a circular journey through this, this name, this audience, this, this idea of what I was going for. And I have a couple of different courses that I've written and one of them was the curiosity toolkit, which has kind of breaks down the, the body and the senses into how we can develop our curiosity in terms of our hands, our feet, our mouse, our brains, our hearts, our souls in, in a way that allows you to really dive into the different ways curiosity's manifested.

Gabe Ratliff:       01:32:38       Wow.

Chris Martin:       01:32:41       And your soul. Yeah. I mean I, I don't know. I, I'm, I'm, I would say that I'm more curious now about the things that we are not certain of and the things that aren't visible, the things that aren't seen as much as the things that can be measured and obsessive. Lee tracked. Speaking of tracking things you've also opened in after that deep comment, you've also opened an online shop. Yeah. selling like posters and swag packs and stuff. How's that going? I mean, cause I know that's had an impact on you as a creative. That was an amazing experience of conceiving an idea of wanting to do a poster. And I wanted to do it for Ben design conference in October. And a really good friend of mine is an amazing artists. He's an amazing illustrator. His name's Kyle shold. And what I love about his work is that he just puts so much effort and detail and his work and, and I just resonate with everything that he does.

Chris Martin:       01:33:44       And I wanted him to do it. And he did and he made monster Chris. And so I made stickers of it, I made posters and I was as hand it out cause I was so proud of it. And I'm like, well why don't I make a shop to, and again, this is a longterm thing. Like I, I've had zero sales and that's okay. I mean it's a longterm game, but at the same time it, it was a good thing to do because I went from thinking about I need to find a client too. I just need to figure out how to create something that people would want to buy. And that was an amazing shift because then it became something that I could be proactive with as opposed to reactive. Like, Oh, I'm not selling any websites this month. What am I doing wrong? As opposed to what am I creating?

Chris Martin:       01:34:31       What am I putting out there? Am I trying things in my experiment thing? And so I would honestly call the shop more of an experiment than something that is a sure fire hit it. It gets back to that thing of creating again, it's like creating for yourself, right? It's the drawing and things but it's, it's taken it to like another level, but it's, I love the, that had that effect on you and reconnecting with yourself as a creative and asking yourself like what is it that I'm creating? And getting away from that, that fear mongering that can happen to ourselves around that next client or you know, the business side of it that can get in the way. I mean that's one of the things about being a creative entrepreneur is that it's like two things that you're having to juggle and one of them is extremely personal.

Chris Martin:       01:35:25       Yeah. Well, and I think too, to kind of build on what we were talking about earlier, I think it's a way of taking something that exists entirely digitally and making physical stuff out of it. And it's just one more way to experience the work that I do and the way that I show up in this world. And I think in many ways it was inspired by Aaron Draplin who is a amazing graphic designer out of Portland. And I had a chance to interview him and see him talk around town before and, and you know, he sells so much merge, like he is the merge King. I mean he's got merged for everything and, and I just loved it cause it was this, it played into this kind of pack rat mentality where you, you're finding all these treasures and you're hoarding them in a way that that creates a fun experience for someone else when you start seeing all these different things.

Chris Martin:       01:36:23       Yeah. And, and, and I have to say, dear audience, I've seen this poster of Chris's, the way that Kyle did and it is Epic. It is Epic. They will, there will be a link in the show notes to your shop because that poster is Epic. Yeah. My, my dream is to get one every quarter made. And if I could financially pull that off, that would be amazing. Cause I love, I love the idea of variants, like in comic books where they'll do variant covers or even like variant posters for movies and things like that. In, in my first job I had this guy who was a volunteer and he would bring me posters cause he worked at a movie theater. And so we'd always bring the, you would know they were authentic because they were the double sided. The reverse was on the backside of the poster and it was us always cool to see the evolution of the fellowship of the ring poster from the teaser to the full release.

Chris Martin:       01:37:23       And it was just amazing to see just that different experience of creativity just in another way. Yeah. We're at the wrap up questions now and this is, you know, this is where I like to do some fun stuff just at the end. Ooh. All right. Thank you. Like fun stuff. Yes. And thank you for taking us on that amazing journey. That was awesome. Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully people are still tracking the conversation if not, we did. Yeah, exactly. And yeah. So first question is, what is your favorite movie, which you just mentioned a minute ago. What's your favorite movie or documentary? My favorite movie of all time is a lovely film called time bandits by a film director named Terry Gilliam. And I don't know why I love this movie so much, but one of my favorite kind of bits of trivia about this film is that Terry Gilliam wanted to make a film shot from the perspective of a child.

Chris Martin:       01:38:26       And so in order to make sure that the camera angles were what he wanted, he hired a cast of dwarfs that, that would allow him to get the composition the way he wanted it. And the acting is amazing. I, I just loved the premise that they still the map of all the time hole so that they could then go back in time and Rob treasures from like characters like Napoleon or King Agamemnon and things like that. So I've read just about every book on that film and I've, I have it on three different versions. I watch it every year on my birthday. It's coming up to that time. So it's almost time to watch time bandits again. Yes. It's almost time bandit time. That's right. Oh, I love it. Yeah, I saw that in the theater and I remember when it finished with that lovely George Harrison song. Oh man. And do you remember how that was not a Hollywood ending? Oh, it's still like it's still is a shocking ending to this day. It is so great. Derby. I remembered being that was, I think my first experience of a non Hollywood ending. Yeah. I mean it is the non Hollywood ending. Yeah. I remember getting to the end and being like, did, did that happen?

Chris Martin:       01:39:53       Really? Yeah, it happened. And I remember my parents just trying to like work me through it cause I was like, Oh my God, that was brutal. I mean I was like, that was traumatic. Yeah. So the kid in the film too, right. But they told him. That's right. So what is the book or books you've given most as a gift? Oh, that's a great question. I think I like to give Austin Cleveland's trilogy out to people. So the keep going, steal like an artist and show your work. I think those three books are amazing. I think for any creative person, you can't go wrong. A still like an artist was first show your work with second keep going was third. That's, that's good. That's, that's a good, that's a good answer. I would probably add fact per function by James Victoria is another one that, that I think everyone should read.

Chris Martin:       01:40:53       I don't give a lot of gifts actually, so that's why I was kind of like what gifts do I give? That that's, those are ones that I would give as gifts though. That's a great one. What obsessions do you explore on the evenings and weekends? Oh my gosh. So weekends are documentary time. So oddly enough, I just, I, I'll just start a documentary and start watching it. And I can always tell when it's a good documentary cause my wife will put down her book or phone and start watching it. So that's, that's always a good sign. Cause you know, I'll get into things like meeting Gorbachev, you know, Verna Hertz, dog's latest film and, and just totally be into it. And she'll just be like, Oh, okay, whatever. Yeah. And then I'll turn on biggest little farm and at first she's like, Oh, I don't know if I'm going to be into this.

Chris Martin:       01:41:39       Then by the end, like she's like in it. So that's when, you know, it's a good film. So I get obsessed about that kind of stuff. I'm constantly reading books. I'm really into, like when I find an a musician or a band that I like, I just, I want to hear everything that they've ever done. So like there's a band called Spock's beard that was founded by an artist named Neil Morris. And so like I found that artist through Mike Portnoy who's the Ekstrom or for dream theater. And so it's just like, I just follow these threads of musical intrigue and have to find all the, the stuff on the discography and then I'll explore their business models and I just nerd out on that stuff. That's so awesome. That's another podcast. That's right. Wow. So Chris, I want to ask what is the number one thing you'd like listeners to take away from this interview?

Chris Martin:       01:42:37       I think the number one thing I want people to take away from this interview is that you can 100% be yourself and create the work that you want to create. Create a business that fits your life, that fits your point of view. Because if you're just wanting to create to be like everyone else, it's already taken. And so why not just be yourself? Why not be okay with the fact that you're still figuring things out or that you're still exploring or you're still trying to find your point of view. Share that that's a point of view. You're here. Anything else that you'd like to say to start talking? I don't know about you gay, but I often get emails from people saying, you know, I'm, I'm trying to tell myself that I'm worthy to be on a show that I'm worthy of sharing my story. I think everyone is 100% worthy of sharing their journey, their story, where they're at. You don't need to be an amazing prolific creator to share your work, to share your story. You're worthy of doing that. Absolutely agree. I,

Gabe Ratliff:       01:43:53       That's very much my part of like one of my North stars, you know, is this is around supporting people to be heard. Yeah. Right into it and to step into their power and to acknowledge that they're enough and that they're worth it and that they are worthy. You know that I think everybody has a great story. Yeah. And that's why I like asking these questions at the end. Cause it was fun questions cause you start to get connected to people of like, Oh yeah, like Time Bandit, right? Like I love that movie and it's, you know, and it's, it starts to, it's almost like that's when you start to get to the, the, the, the human level with someone, right? Because it's not around something that can have so much wrapped around it. Like when you're talking about work or you're talking about, you know, experiences or what not, right? But when you're talking about something that's just like pure and is a, is a, is an absolute pure passion, even though creativity is for us, right? It's like the thing that we're doing. But if it's something like a film or a book or music or something, you can really get that visceral connection of like, Oh yeah, I totally love that. Or Oh my God, yeah, that did suck. Or whatever.

Chris Martin:       01:45:05       Yeah. And that's 100% who you are and who you need to be. And I think if there's one final thing that I'll say in this interview is that, you know, having a shared experience around art is possible only if you allow yourself to, to share, but also listen and hear what other people are saying and, and not just pushing them aside because you might not agree or you might not share that same point of view, that shared experience only matters and comes alive when it's shared. So where can people find you on the interwebs? The easiest way is to go to Chris Martin studios.com you'll find everything that you'll want and more at that URL pretty much every URL that I own parks to one page on or another on that site. So Getting Work to Work can be found on most podcast platforms by searching, Getting Work to Work where you can just go to the short URL of GWTW Dot C O

Gabe Ratliff:       01:46:09       Well, Chris, man, you know, I love you bro. I love the work you're doing. I love these chats every time we talk. It's just such an amazing, amazing conversation and keep up the great work brother. Until next time.

Chris Martin:       01:46:24       Thank you. Absolutely. This has been a blast.

Gabe Ratliff:       01:46:29       Well, that's it for this episode. If this is your first time listening, thank you so much for being here. I really hope you enjoyed the show. The Artful Entrepreneur podcast comes out bi-weekly and is available every other Thursday for your enjoyment and all links and show notes for this episode can be found at theartful.co if you haven't, please subscribe to the show and leave a rating or review on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you'd like to be a guest or know someone, that would be a great fit, please go to theartful.co/guest and thanks again for listening. Until next time.