033: Justin Kruger - Improving mental wellness with purpose and community
Founder of Project Helping opens up about mental wellness and the power of giving back
In this special episode, I got to record a live interview with Justin at The Blender, where businesses and nonprofits meet, hosted by Julianna Nelson, owner of Phillinova. We were asked to speak about "our stories" and how they are important to our organizations.
Justin Kruger is the Founder and CEO of Project Helping, a Denver-based mental wellness organization. He grew up in a ridiculously small town in Iowa. He studied finance and economics, which he now doesn’t use at all. He instead played golf professionally before starting a career in the golf industry. Over 15 years he did all the jobs one could find in this industry, most notably staying with PING golf for almost 10 years. His personal struggle with mental wellness led him to leave the golf business behind to start Project Helping and providing purpose, connection, and mental wellness through “kyndfulness”.
NOTES
Justin’s journey from growing up in a small town with a passion for golf to landing his “dream job” at a high-profile golf company where he was making great money and being “successful” until he began having panic attacks
the story of a date with a woman (now his wife) that would change his life forever — a date where he would learn the power of giving back by volunteering
his non-profit, Project Helping as well as his app, KyndHub
some of his biggest challenges since starting to do this work
advice to people dealing with similar struggles of mental wellness
LINKS
Twitter: @krugerjustin
TRANSCRIPT
Justin Kruger: 00:00 I often, I hear people a lot of times say that like, Oh, you're just really lucky that you found what you're passionate about. And I don't think that's true. I think we all find that for the most part at some point, but I think the majority of us are afraid to actually take the action to do it, to that point of what if I'm successful? What if I'm not? Or what if I am? What does that life look like? And I don't know what that is. Right? So I think take imperfect action is probably my favorite takeaway.
Gabe Ratliff: 00:27 You're listening to The Artful Entrepreneur podcast, a show about living, an inspired life filled with vitality, creativity, and fulfillment. My name is Gabe Ratliff, and I'll be your host as I interview fellow creative entrepreneurs from around the globe to hear their stories and learn more about their work so that you can tap into your creative purpose and live a life that's drawn, not traced on the show. We talk about things like the creative process, personal development, community equity and contribution, as well as the lessons learned along the way. All right, let's get to it.
Gabe Ratliff: 01:13 Hey, Artfuls! How's it going out there? Have you ever had a panic attack? I've had a couple in my life and I remember when I had the first one. I was blessed to not even know what that was like until later in my life. But when I finally did have one, it was earth shattering. I mean, I remember it's almost like an out of body experience and it's can be really scary and it's nowhere near the kind of experience that my guest had. But it's something that many people deal with and it's part of, it's part of the experience that we can go through as creatives and entrepreneurs and just as humans out there, you know, trying to hustle and just really crank in our jobs and in our businesses and in life. And so I felt like this was a conversation that would be so great for this show and it was just such a great honor to be able to be at this event with Justin to do this live interview. The event is called, The Blender. It's done by a friend and colleague of mine, Julianna Nelson. She's owner of Phillinova and is also a cohort leader at Kite + Dart Group where I've been getting business coaching now for about a year and a half. Juliana hosts this event, The Blender where she brings entrepreneurs together with nonprofits and creates this environment where innovation can occur. It's, it's super cool idea. I love it. She asked Justin and I if we could speak about our story and talk about storytelling and how it's affected our lives, how it's been injected into our businesses and so I was able to do a live podcast interview with Justin to share his story and essentially unpack the journey and the arc that brought him to where he is today as the founder and CEO of Project Helping, a Denver-based mental wellness organization.
Gabe Ratliff: 03:25 Now a little bit more about Justin. He grew up in a ridiculously small town in Iowa and I S I grew up in a small town but no holds, no candle to the town he grew up in. He studied finance and economics, which he now doesn't use at all. He instead played golf professionally before starting a career in the golf industry over 15 years. He did all the jobs one could in the industry, most notably staying with ping golf for almost 10 years. His personal struggle with mental wellness led him to leave the golf business behind to start his nonprofit project, helping and providing purpose, connection and mental wellness through kindfulness and in the episode we talk about Justin's journey from growing up in a small town with this passion for golf where he ended up landing this dream job, so he thought he was making great money, he was being successful until he began having panic attacks.
Gabe Ratliff: 04:20 We talk about the story of a date with a woman now, his wife that would change his life forever, a date where he would learn the power of giving back by volunteering. He talks about his nonprofit project helping as well as the app that he's developed called [inaudible] hub. He also shares some of his biggest challenges since starting to do this work and he shares advice to people dealing with similar struggles of mental wellness. I, like I said, he's just an amazing human super funny, super great guy. Really enjoyed this time and I'm really excited to share this special live interview with you. So let's get to it.
Gabe Ratliff: 05:06 What I wanted to kind of pose to you guys to think about is, and you know, and a lot of us listen to podcasts, so I'm not really throw anything new out here, but think about how as you listen to this interview that think about the power of his story and like how it applies to him and the thread that gets him to where we are today and how it's, it's helped him in his arc as a human, not just in the work he's doing with his nonprofit. Justin, thank you so much for being here, brother.
Justin Kruger: 05:35 Happy to be here.
Gabe Ratliff: 05:37 I want you to take us back, take us back to your childhood and I want to tell us about where, where you grew up and what that was like.
Justin Kruger: 05:44 Yeah. So I'm, I grew up in a ridiculously small town in Iowa and when I say ridiculously small, like 900 people, so we didn't have a stoplight. We had like seven churches and three bars and that was about it. I grew up in the same house my entire life, a small farming community. Both my grandparents were had farms, large dairy farms. And so I remember being able to drive a tractor when I was like eight. It's pretty cool. And I came up, I still milk a cow. Sweet. I know it really hasn't come in handy since I moved to Denver, but I don't drink cow's milk anymore either. So. Yeah, no, so stupid, stupid small town. Not the people, but the size. And I remember I graduated high school. There were 29 other people in my graduating class and that was, we had to put three towns together to make that size of a school. So there's about 120 people in our high school which is a very, very different way to grow up, I think than probably a lot of us did.
Justin Kruger: 06:48 I know it's very different than how my kids are growing up. So. So when you were young, what were your passions besides milking cows? Yep. Yeah, I did that to you by the way. Did you? Yeah, my grandparents had a farm. How much fun. They had all these bunnies, which were disgusting. Yeah. You know, all that stuff. Yeah. my passions. So I I was always really into sports. I played every sport. I mean I had to cause and not enough people to fill most of the teams, but I played all the sports. Particularly he was passionate about baseball and basketball and I actually was going to go play division one college baseball at Creighton. And then I hurt my elbow when I was a junior. And I was also really good at golf of all things, which is a really weird thing to be good at in a super small town.
Justin Kruger: 07:29 There was like four of us that played golf. But my parents owned their own business and it was a small like office supply and office furniture business. So my job from when I was like 12 was putting together office furniture. So if you guys ever need Ikea stuff put together, I, I am your guy. But when I got hurt, I, I was like, I'm just gonna play golf. And so I, my little brother and I used to see how many holes we could play in a single day and so we could get up and go play a bout 120 holes a day if we just went from sunup to sundown. Whoa. Yeah, I know. That's the proper response to that. Yeah. Whoa. So, yeah, so really passionate about golf sports in general and putting together office furniture. So we're going to take a little tour detour here because I want to talk about something that wasn't something you were passionate about.
Justin Kruger: 08:20 You know, when you were at this point, you were also starting to get to a place where you tapped into something that is something that a lot of people deal with panic attacks. Yeah. Could you tell us about that? Yeah, I mean I think in hindsight I can recognize the fact that I started struggling with my mental health when I was, you know, sort of late in middle school. But believe it or not 20 years ago, and in a town of 900 people, there's not a lot of mental health resources and it's not a huge topic. Right. And the sort of general mindset where we grew up with sorta, you know, suck it up, we got stuff to do, I'll give you something to cry about. I, I've heard that a lot. Right. So so I never felt like I was able to talk about it.
Justin Kruger: 09:05 And I, it's only really looking back in hindsight that I even know what I was struggling with. Right. But like severe anxiety and depression, which sadly often go hand in hand as we know. And it was, it was weird cause I, I think I remember looking like for other people that looked happy, right? At least on the surface who looked happy, who are the people that I wanted to be like. And it was always the people that were successful and famous, right? Famous, successful, rich, had nice stuff, had nice cars, had nice. So my whole, and my parents very much had that mindset, not in a bad way, but you know, they own their own business. They were entrepreneurs. That was always part of our life. And so I was like, well, I just, I need to make a bunch of money.
Justin Kruger: 09:42 That's why I'm not happy clearly. Right? Like, I don't, I need to make more money and I need to have a nice house and cars and all that good stuff. And so yeah, I started, I started struggling really early without ever telling anyone, frankly. And I was actually for the first time I was hospitalized. I was 21. I was living in Phoenix. We'll get to that. I have a feeling. But I was hospitalized for the first time because of a full blown panic attack. I genuinely thought I was having a heart attack and then decided to drive myself to the hospital, which is a weird decision to make at that point in time. Believe it or not, I'm a better decision maker than I've led on so far.
Justin Kruger: 10:22 I may not actually be true either. So could you, I'm just curious, could you take us through what it felt like the first time, like what that is if you don't mind? No, not at all. Happy to know. I'm an open book. It was, I w at that point I was working at a golf store in Scottsdale and it was a normal day, no reason generally to be anxious or have a panic attack, which I think unfortunately is why they're so difficult to deal with too, because they strike for no apparent reason. But I remember I was, I was going out the front door of the shop and like to bring in the stuff. It was the end of the day and it just sorta like, it sort of like hit me like running into a wall and I was like, Oh, like that feels really weird.
Justin Kruger: 11:06 Like I really thought I was having a heart attack. Like I couldn't breathe. My chest genuinely hurt. And I remember just sorta like, I sorta like bent over, I was sort of like halfway hunched over and one of the ladies that worked there came out and she's like, are you okay? And I was like, yeah, yeah, no, I'm fine. Like I'm 21 I'm definitely not having a heart attack. But I, I couldn't, like, I couldn't breathe, I couldn't catch my breath. I couldn't figure out what was going on. And I think there's, there's like the, the sheer terror that comes with that too. Like I might die on this sidewalk in front of a golf store. Like that's what I felt like it was not how I envisioned things ending at all. And I just, at that point, I, it took, it took me probably five, six minutes, I don't know, it felt like years, but it took five or six minutes to sort of wrap my head around the fact that like, okay, I'm not having a heart attack, but something's happening and it hurts and I'm going to drive myself to the, I don't remember where that, that piece of the decision came in, but, but that's what it felt like.
Justin Kruger: 12:01 It was like I'd run into some sort of like imaginary wall and like couldn't breathe well. And I think about that stuff often too. You know, like I, I'm married and I think like, Oh, if something happened, and especially like if TIFF was there, yeah, she could take care of it, right? Like take me to the hospital or whatever. But it's like, I think about, like, I, she just went to the airport today, she's flying to Mexico and I'm like, if I'm alone, what would I do? You know? And it's like, if you are alone like that, you think like, well, I gotta deal with it myself. Right? Like, who am I going to call and I don't even know what I'm going through. And you're just like, Oh, I'm a man up basically South Moneta in the Southwest. Let's make it happen. Right. And yeah, and for me it was the Southeast, so it's the same deal.
Justin Kruger: 12:48 So what was the checking yourself into the hospital like once you got there? Yeah, anytime you, anytime you roll up to the ER and say you're having chest pains regardless of how old you are, that they're going to take it relatively seriously. And I remember, I remember being taken in immediately, right. Chest pains. This is like a, they're like, okay, I'm taking you right away into the ER instead of waiting in the waiting room, which was nice. I got to bypass the ER waiting room. But I remember going in and still sorta realizing deep down I was like, I know I'm not having a heart attack, but it still feels like it. And I, I was in a, I was in a, you know, one of those curtain off little rooms in the ER. And I remember hearing them have the conversation with the guy next to me and I could overhear the conversation and I was like, I'm going in this room by myself for a long time now.
Justin Kruger: 13:33 I don't know if there is concerned about me as I am about myself at this point. But I remember them, them talking to the guy next to me and they said, Oh, you know, don't worry. It was just a panic attack. Just, I was like, that's a really weird way to put that. Like it's just a panic attack because if that's what I'm having, it's not just anything like this is legit. And I remember them saying like, Oh well just, you know, we have this medication for you, you'll be fine. Go ahead and take this and you know, if it happens again, take it. I was like, it seems like super casual. I don't quite understand what's happening here. And so then the quite a while later it has happened, they came in and they said, Oh, we're going to take you for some x-rays and MRIs and CT scans and all the things right.
Justin Kruger: 14:18 Cause I said chest pain and so got a full on wallet biopsy as it turned out. And after all that, by the end of the day, by that night, cause it's like five 36 o'clock when I went in the hospital. So like in the middle of the night find that they're like, Oh, everything structurally is fine for the most part. But you had, but you just had a panic attack. And I was just like angry cause like it w it doesn't just feel like a panic attack. I was pretty certain I was going to die and I just remember them being like so cavalier about it. Like, eh, it's not your heart, so you're good. You can go, what? You're fine bro. But I, but I ended up, I ended up staying because basically when they, you know, and no one in the world knew that I was in the hospital. I didn't, I mean my boss knew, but I was, I said I was having chest pains, which wasn't factually incorrect, but I said I was having chest pains and that's why I was in the hospital.
Justin Kruger: 15:15 And they're like, Oh, of course, take all the time you need. Right. But I didn't tell my family, my friends, I didn't tell anyone that I had a panic attack and I was just so they, they gave, outlined all this treatment, here's, you know, here's the medication, here's therapy, here's all these things you can do. And then I was sort of just alone again. I was like, that was it. Yeah. Here, take these pills. Yeah. And have a good one. Yeah. I think the scariest part was leaving at that point. I mean, it was like two days later that I, or three days later almost that I finally left. Oh wow. Well, I mean, you know, they're like, you know, are you thinking about hurting yourself? And I was like, I honestly, I don't know, like, and so there I stayed, you know, and got the full, the full hold. So, wow. Which is a really rude introduction to the mental healthcare system having never done any sort of treatment before. So, yeah.
Gabe Ratliff: 16:03 What, how did you feel about the treatment?
Justin Kruger: 16:07 Gosh, that's a loaded uh it was, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I didn't know any better. I didn't know. I just thought this was how you got treated if you had a panic attack or you're struggling with your mental health, right? Like I, at that point I was pretty aware that I'd been struggling for seven, eight years. Right. But I was like, Oh, I guess this is how they treat it. I guess this is what happens when you're struggling and that so I remember being, it was, I was sorta happy just to be alive because right. I thought I was going to die and I didn't. So that was like, I was like, all right, I guess whatever happens from here, I sort of had that like, well, I'm still alive, so whatever happens from here is going to be fine. Type of approach for a few days. And then I just remember, like I said, feeling very lonely because I left there and no one knew.
Justin Kruger: 16:52 And soon, now what do I do? Like I don't, I don't want to take this medication. I don't like the way it made me feel in the hospital. I don't want to take it. And I definitely don't want to go to therapy, no offense. But I'd never done it. And I was intimidated by the thought of going to therapy and I was like, well, I'm not going to do any of this. Which was the approach that I took, which in hindsight, again, not a solid decision to be like, I'm not going to do anything about this. I'm just going to pretend it didn't happen and I'm going to carry on with my Merry little way.
Gabe Ratliff: You know, it's interesting. I've been reading. Do you know Brene Brown? Yeah. Do you guys like Brene Brown? I love Brene Brown. I have a crush on her. My wife knows all about it. But I've been reading daring greatly and one of the things that I'm just really processing a lot right now is about vulnerability and just that exact thing. And one of the things she talks about is how men from birth are just, it's all about being strong and like showing up in that way, right? And not being vulnerable in this place. And meanwhile, inside you're crumbling, right? You're like alone.
Gabe Ratliff: 17:51 You don't, you've never dealt with this before. You don't know how to handle it and you're just like, eh. That's why I know so many dads are like, I'm not going to the doctor. I'll be fine. Absolutely. Just put some water on it. You know? And with women it's around this, this thing of being, if you're a mother being this amazing mother, right? And if you're just a just period woman or the female period, not whether your mother or not, the very top thing is around always being together physically, like outside and inside, right? Always looking, even always being on stage. Even when you're in your comfy PJ's at home, if there's people around you, you have to be on stage, right? It's only when there's no home. You can order a pizza, you can put a log in the fire, break, open the wine, have some chocolate and it's all good, right? And you can have all the fields, but you're actually finally off stage. And
Justin Kruger: 18:42 That [inaudible]
Gabe Ratliff: 18:44 Is so detrimental to us, right? Cause it's such a heavy burden that we have to wear and we don't even know it. But then you know, you look back and you're like, I made these decisions,
Justin Kruger: 18:54 But that's what you're pretty much programmed to do. Sure. Depending on who you are. Right. Yeah. So let's talk about your dream job. Cause this is also kind of like about the same time that you're getting towards that. Yeah, that's the irony really. Right. So I so going back just a bit, I was really passionate about golf. I ended up getting a division one golf scholarship. I went and played golf. There's a lot of mental health and golf jokes to be had at this point. So do your worst. And then I, I literally moved to Phoenix. I was there to play golf for a living. So I was playing golf professionally which is not a low stress environment either, but I was also working in the business just to try to pay the rent. Right. And so I was working in the golf shop and but I really quickly realized I was not good enough to make money playing golf.
Justin Kruger: 19:45 As evidenced by the fact that you've never heard of me. So I, so I was like, well, I'm gonna make a fulltime thing of this, this golf, this golf business. And so I started working in the golf business and ping golf, huge off club company. They're based in Phoenix and I got a job in customer service, which was not the dream job by the way. We're getting to that point. Got a job in customer service worked my way up and I'd been there about a year and a half. And I actually was hospitalized for a second time after I had started there. So hospital I same thing, although this time I knew what it was, right? I felt like I was having a heart attack, but I'm like, I got this, just go to the hospital and get the meds. And but I, I was working at paying and still clinging firmly to the belief that I just wasn't successful enough yet professionally to be happy.
Justin Kruger: 20:33 Right. And I was like, all right, well, ping provides me this Avenue to really big corporate opportunity. Right. And so I worked my tail off and worked my way up and I was 24 and they came to me and said, Hey, there's this sales territory open in Omaha. Would you like to go to Omaha? And I was like, no, I don't. And it wasn't cause Omaha, it was just, I was like, I don't want to be a salesman. That's not, that's not what my dream was. And then, and then they said, well, the starting pays 140 grand a year. And I was like, great, when can I leave? Cause that was the, that was the thing, right? I was like, okay, well if I can just be successful professionally, I'm going to be happy. So I took the job and moved to Phoenix, shockingly, to find out that it didn't really help my mental health all that much.
Justin Kruger: 21:17 So I'm living in a place where I don't really know anybody. And I'm making a ton of money and th these sort of roads continue to sort of diverged from each other, right? Like my mental health continues to struggle and at this point I'm hell bent on never going back to the hospital. Right. Regardless of what happens. But professionally I am really good at what I do. You know, recognize all the conceivable awards you could win. I, I was winning and making money and getting promotions and but yeah, it was, it was really a, it was an odd time in my life in that just like at this very like scary, fast paced. These two paths were quickly working away from each other where it really felt like I was two completely different people at that point. Wow. So you're, you're completely diverging, you've got success occurring.
Justin Kruger: 22:08 Yeah. And he put that in air quotes. I did this or listening by the way, that was a pause for dramatic effect. So then you also have mental health just completely crumbling inside. Yeah. This is also leading you up to moving to Denver. Yeah. Can you talk about that? Yeah. So I'd been in Omaha for almost three years and as I said, having a tremendous amount of success professionally had the nice house and cars and it didn't help at all. And I remember that my, my boss at the time came to me and said, Hey, there's this territory open in Omaha. It's, it's twice as big, twice as much revenue. I was like, well, that was the problem. Obviously I just wasn't making enough money yet. Absolutely. I will gladly go to Denver. And it was Denver versus Omaha, let's be honest. Yep. So I did, I came to Denver and that actually shortly after moving here was when I was at my worst because at that point I was isolated again. PR like literally, I didn't know anyone's, I'm isolated in that I don't have a community. I am struggling intensely with my mental health at that point. So much so that I at that point had put together a proper plan of how I was going to commit suicide. Wow. So
Justin Kruger: 23:27 When you're saying you're struggling, what, explain that. Like what did that mean? What was the actual like day to day struggle of mental health? You know, I think that's a really good question cause I think when people hear that they see like I can't get out of bed, I can't, that was never the case for me. It was more that I could, I could get up and I could do my job really well. I could function at a really high level, but at the end of the day I was completely spent. Right. I was done. Cause it's, you're, it's so fake. Like everything about that is fake. Everything, every interaction, every phone call, every email, every, everything about that was fake. Right. I mean cause you, you almost, you almost take that, you almost take that sort of to a whole nother level of like I have to be overly happy and overly cheery and overly gregarious so that no one sees through this.
Justin Kruger: 24:18 Like really what felt like very thinly veiled persona of someone that was happy. Wow. Thank you for sharing this by the way. I know this isn't like super easy stuff. No, it's, yeah, it's a Chan. Happy to do it. I appreciate it. Yeah. You are happy to do it now. Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. Which we're getting to. Yeah. We're getting there. So this is your mental health is just like I said, it's like crumbling. You're just feeling this crushing feeling. Yes. Let's talk about volunteering because you're got this do your very first volunteering session. So tell us that story. Yeah. So we're, we'll fast forward probably a year and a half after moving here. I'm still struggling, still sort of have this plan in place and I'm frankly at that point just waiting for the right time to, to commit suicide. That's sort of work. That's sort of the holding pattern I'm in at that point.
Justin Kruger: 25:16 Right. It's a very day to day existence. What were you going to do? Did you said you had to plan? Yeah, so I part of my territory was Western Kansas. Figured that was as good a place as any, Oh God. There's not a knock on Western Kansas. Just, it's a long road trip and like you don't go on for like two weeks when I go out there and no one would notice for awhile I was sort of the plan. So it was just, you know, pills in a hotel room. That was pretty much it. But like I had the pills, I was, you know, I had all the medications you would possibly want to take. So mine was the complete opposite. It was like off a cliff in my car. Music cranking. Oh, film Luis, right? Yeah. Yeah. Much more rock and roll. I was younger, I was much younger.
Justin Kruger: 26:00 I think I was like 16 yeah. And I was note was written all that. Yup. I wasn't gonna leave a note. Yeah, I figured it'd be pretty obvious. I wanted the attention back then. You know, I was young enough it wasn't, I didn't, it wasn't the like I'm going to actually go through with it, so I'm going to make it this, you know, two weeks. I mean, that was thought out. Oh yeah, yeah. They won't know. They will know for awhile and be like, wait, where's Justin? A minute. He should be back by now. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I had the, so I had the plan and at this point I had started dating a woman cause I was like, this is a healthy time to start a new relationship.
Justin Kruger: 26:39 It's funny how these things work out, honestly. Right? Like I just, I don't, again, like maybe I'm not as good a decision maker as I let on to be, but it worked out fine. Right. So, so I had to, I had gone on a few dates with this very nice young woman. And she was super cute, which was helpful. And she actually invited me to volunteer. She said, Hey, I'm going to go volunteer. Like next weekend you should come along. And I was like, absolutely. I am a pillar of the community. I would love to go. I had never done anything for anyone else that would not somehow monetarily benefit me in the long run. And that was just my existence. Right? And so, so I only went because there was no monetary benefit, but we all know where that's going. And it was like our third or fourth day.
Justin Kruger: 27:23 And I went, I remember, I remember showing up. And so we were planting this garden or building this garden for a low income middle school through revision international, which they build like these urban gardens is super cool organization. And my wife knew the founders and so we showed up and I remember they were explaining what we were going to be doing that day. Like, Hey, here's what we're going to build. Here's how it's going to impact these kids. Here's why the fact that you're here matters. And I remember like sort of having this moment like, Oh, like the fact that I'm here matters, that's a new feeling to me. Right? And so it was this, it was really a sort of a light bulb moment, right? And I was like, okay, like, I mean, I have all the means you would want to help people.
Justin Kruger: 28:08 Why the hell am I not helping people? And it was really like almost this instant void was filled with like, Oh, I get it. And so at that point I was like, well, I'm going to stick around, right. I'm going to put these plans on hold and I'm just going to stick around and like see what there is to this, like helping people thing that seems to be such a fad. So I was, I was, Hey, this is fun too. So I ended up marrying the girl who works out really well, so she's my wife now, so I can tell that story that way. That's, I have her permission, signed waiver and all. I remember we, we showed up and I don't know anything about gardening, right? Like not a thing. And we got there and they're like, here's what we're going to build.
Justin Kruger: 28:51 And she tells the story that like, we were there for like 30 minutes. They got done with all the intros. She turned around, I was gone and she's like, Oh, that went well. I had gotten so excited, right, that I just jumped back in my truck and I drove to home Depot and I just bought everything that I thought a garden needed. And I, again, I don't know anything about gardening, so I was just like, here's the receipt, just take it back if it's get the cash. I was just, I was so moved and so excited and I had not, I described it to someone this way the other day. Like when everything around you is so dark, like the tiniest bit of light becomes incredibly visible. Right. And that's what that was in that moment. Like I was like, Oh, there's like there's, there's some hope there.
Justin Kruger: 29:34 And I was just instantly hooked. I was like, I gotta, I gotta do everything I can to help people. That was just, that was it. Like it was a whole like life changing thing at that point. So then when did you start to recognize the shift in your mental health inside from what you're doing outside? Well, I mean I think there's, there's, there's stages to that because I think there was an instant shift just from the standpoint of like, I'm not going to commit suicide. Like that's that sort of, that instant moment where like at least I'm going to put this on hold. Right. Like that's an instant instant benefit, but then there was also the fact that I felt like I finally had a tool in my toolbox for when I was struggling, which that sort of that sense of hope, that thing to cling to where like at least I know there's one thing I can do and it was reliable.
Justin Kruger: 30:25 It was a thing that I could do that always made me feel better. And so over the next couple of years I did everything I could to just try to be really intentional about helping people write out. I tried to sign up to volunteer as much as I could and when I couldn't do that, I was just trying to be a better person and like I'm going to help people and buy coffee for the person in line behind me. I'm going to just little things. But I was very intentional about it. I was like, I really am gonna try to do something good every day because it makes me not want to die. Right. Again, there's not this, it's not a zero sum equation. You can help people and they'll benefit, but it doesn't mean it can't be good for you. Right. And so I think there was that instant light bulb moment and then there was sort of that longterm hope that came from, I know I have something that I can do when I'm struggling.
Justin Kruger: 31:12 Yeah. And I totally connect with that. For me that was similar around that intention and purpose. And I feel like when you have the passion and the purpose that meet together, man, that's just life changing. Cause there's like, it gets you through. Yeah, the internal like humanistic hard times, but also the work often times, no doubt. But I think as, as human beings we're, we're hard wired to want to help people. Right. And I think, I want to have a sense of purpose, but I think it's really easy to lose sight of that now especially. Oh yeah. Right. Like, because there is that, to your point earlier, there's this lack of real authentic connection. We have this phone connection. It was just lack of like real, authentic connection. And I think with authentic connection comes the reminder that you can help people, right? And you can do things that matter.
Justin Kruger: 31:59 And I think that's what was missing for me. For sure. Yeah. Well, and it was for me too. I, I have had a difficult time my entire life knowing what I wanted as a creative. I liked all kinds of shit. Yeah. I mean, I was like, I try to, I'm as a designer, filmmaker, podcaster, DJ, drummer, I mean I've done so many things and I love them all, but I was trying all these different things. I tried all these different sports, but I didn't have a purpose. I didn't recognize what my purpose was. And so when I took the time to do it and actually think through and like do the deep hard work, and I came up with my purpose, it was same for me. That's why I
Gabe Ratliff: 32:39 Completely connected with you on this story of yours was I was like, Oh yeah, the same thing I did. And I was like, Oh, purpose. Right, right. It's the key, you know, it's like, it's not just like I want to do a thing because it's cool and I like it and I'm passionate about it. It's like, no, I want to do the thing because it makes an impact and it does something. No doubt. So now let's talk about project helping. Let's,
Justin Kruger: 33:02 Yeah. Well, so as, as I'm going through those, those two years of genuinely using the act of helping people as my own therapy, I was also growing increasingly frustrated with how hard it was to just go help people. If you just want to sign up and go help someone, it was harder than I wanted it to be. Right. This is a therapy for me at this point. Like, I need access to this, I need to be able to do it. And it was so as harder than I thought that it should be just in my own little world that I was living in. Right. And so that combination of experiences of using it as a therapy basically, right. And being frustrated with how hard it was to do was sort of the, the, the, the moment where I was like, well, I think there's an opportunity here to create something that is focused on helping people build mental wellbeing through having a similar experience to what I had.
Justin Kruger: 33:56 And so it was just, it was that sort of, it's not project helping wasn't this light bulb moment as much as it was like, why does it have to be this damn hard to help people? Maybe we can make it easier. And that was the concept is like let's create the most meaningful social and frankly stupid easy volunteer experiences that you can sign up for so that people can use it in the same way that I was using it. So explain what it is we, so I talked earlier about how like I, you know, I was volunteering, I was helping people, I was looking for ways to intentionally do good things and I was a, built it into what we now refer to internally as kindfulness a daily focus on doing good things for people as a tool to build mental wellbeing. And so on the project helping side, we host now about 550 volunteer events a year, mostly around sort of the Denver Metro area here. But we partner with nonprofits. We create these group experiences so that people can participate and find a sense of purpose, find a sense of connection with other people and really genuinely give back as a tool to build mental wellbeing. So we're creating experiences that are aimed at, you know, giving people a chance to have that same benefit of do good for someone because it's good.
Gabe Ratliff: 35:11 Oh, I love it. That's the other thing I love about this time right now is the experiential businesses and organizations are just crushing it because people are with this disconnection that's happening online. People are like wanting experiences. No doubt. Yeah. I mean it's, it's phenomenal and I love it because my wife and I are very much into that. We're we've been on the minimalist kick for a long time. I like to call it essentially list for a long time. And so we've been getting
Justin Kruger: 35:38 Rid of so much of our stuff, air quotes, again, so much of our stuff to focus more around what we really, I'm a total cone Marie Marie Kondo method thing. So and this was before the show. Just getting connected with what truly brings you joy inside and outside, you know, and like really getting clear about the things you want to have around you. And like I want to have these things, a microphone, my laptop. I want to be able to have these kinds of experiences and be able to bring these stories to life through things that I know how to do, but also like I want to have the things I need to do it. And I gotten rid of all these other things that were just distractions. So moving forward, let's talk now about kind hub cause I'd like to hear about that too.
Justin Kruger: 36:20 Yeah. so as I talked about, we built sort of our, our spirits into this practice that we call kindfulness. And as we were building out, we started by doing, you know, one event a month and then one a week and now 35 or 40 a month. Right. And as we were building that out, we started to get a lot of corporate interest in our work. Companies want their employees to be involved in the community. We had a ton of those experiences. And so we started to be able to have these conversations with companies about, you know, we have company has a wellness program and they have a volunteer program or a CSR program. And very seldom do they connect those two things and understand that there's actually benefit to be had for the employee's mental wellbeing. And we started just basically consulting almost in saying like, look, here's how we could re shape or restructure your community impact program to specifically have a benefit on your employee's mental wellbeing.
Justin Kruger: 37:12 And as we were doing that and learning from companies about what they needed and what they wanted, we built our own tech platform. So we're very much a social enterprise. But, and I'm, I've always been very much like a closet nerd in that I love using technology to solve problems. And we recognized a problem in that companies were focused primarily on the branding benefits of being involved in the community and not the employee wellness benefits. So we built kind of hub as a platform that gamified our practice of kindfulness and let companies engage their people in doing good things, track it through the platform, still get the sort of branding benefit, but get that branding benefit as a byproduct of the focus on wellbeing instead of the focus being on branding upfront. And so we built a tech platform as part of a nonprofit, which is probably a whole separate podcast, but the basically bootstrapped a technology platform as part of our organization.
Justin Kruger: 38:04 And then we licensed that to companies and help drive and really fuel our own growth through earned income. Oh, that's awesome. I'm huge into the gamification of a thing. Likewise. It is. That's awesome. So what have been some of your biggest challenges since you started doing this work? Oh, only one, right? What's that only one challenge? It's only one, right? Did I say plural? Sorry. No, I think you did. Oh, I just want to, cause this could get really long. You know, I think it's okay. That's a good question. I think it's been trying to reign in my own desire to just like grow and grow and grow and grow because we've had some of those opportunities, right? And we have grown, we've doubled the number of people we serve every year for six consecutive years, but fantastic. It's hard to keep me on track, right? Like, it's like, Oh, squirrel. And I'm going that direction. So I think it's been learning how to really be, go from being a founder to a CEO and just trying not to do all the things, do everything to help people right. In every conceivable way. And it's really hard to stay in our lane. It's hard for me to stay in our lane. It's not hard for all of us to stay in our lane. That's why I have people around me that are better at that than I am.
Gabe Ratliff: 39:22 Yeah. Here, here I'm saying shiny new things. Oh, yeah. All day. The episode I just released with Brie noble, she helps female musicians to be successful in that. How they show up as musicians and not have to just be, you know, successful in the music business, but figure out how to be successful for yourself as a female musician. So she was sharing the inspiration vault, which is what she does for people who shiny new things. And I was like, that's me. Yeah, thank you. Sign me up. And just like having this place where you kind of hold onto these ideas that we get right. As creatives and entrepreneurs, just people, but then hold onto it and it's basically locked and like you get it unlocked by this coach, like she unlocks it for you as you hit these goals that you set up. So it really cool concept cause I was like, Oh, I could use that for sure. You have inspiration stuff all the time. When I think along those same lines, like I, I've struggled and still struggle with
Justin Kruger: 40:21 The transformation as a human being from someone that was solely focused on making money and being successful to running a nonprofit right. Like, that's a really big change and leap. And so I think personally that's a continual struggle, right? Like of I'm actually really afraid to become too successful because I know the kind of person I was. That was my next question, successful. And so that's a really big fear of mine actually being too successful. I used Derek quotes to being too successful cause I really did not like who I was at that point. And so there's, there's a lot of fear there for me and what that would look like,
Gabe Ratliff: 41:01 You know? And for me, one of the people I go back to is he was just here, sir Richard Branson for the biennial of the Americas and he spoke about all the great things he's doing. But one of the things I love about him, just as a kind of a role model for people like us, is I had this whole thing about money and success. It kind of blocked me cause I was, I just have this same aversion to what can happen as you get bigger and make more money and all these things. And I was always afraid of that. So it kind of held me back. But one of the things I love about people like him is
Justin Kruger: 41:34 It, it proves to you how much you can do with more money. Sure. If you invest it in the right way, like organizations, nonprofits these, all these different foundations, he's developed bill Gates. I don't know if you've seen that on Netflix. That documentary is Epic. He's doing all kinds of awesome stuff, but he's now focusing all of the work he did at Microsoft into these foundations to do this really great work for the world. Yeah, no doubt. So how do you check in with that then? Like what are ways that you've kind of established to check in with that? You know, it's been interesting. I I think it would be, it would be natural from the beginning, I think to build a network of nonprofit leaders, right. Cause I didn't know anything about nonprofits. But instead I've been very intentional about building a network of successful entrepreneurs, like people that I can sort of lean on to say, Hey look, I'm scared of this thing or I feel like I'm making this decision out of fear or so trying to be really aware of that, but also surrounding myself with people who are willing to sort of kick me in the ass when I need it basically.
Justin Kruger: 42:36 And be like, no, just like you can be successful and still be a decent person. Right. I don't have any evidence of that personally. Right. Like that's the challenge. Those two things have always been very separate from me. So I don't have the evidence personally that I can do that successfully. And so I think just having people around me that can try to sort of keep me in line is really helpful here, here. So where's your mental health at now with like, how do you have this sense of like overall wellbeing now that you've been doing this for a while? It's actually really good. Knock on wood. I think I, I don't, I don't know how the saying goes, but I, I know I've, I've seen it before where like, you know, if you're working really hard at something you don't love, it's stress.
Justin Kruger: 43:15 And if you're working really hard at something, you do love. It's passion. Yeah. So I think it's a very different stress now, but one that I enjoy, which sounds odd, but you get it right. I think that probably everyone in here gets it. And so I think that, I think that I, I genuinely wake up every day and I'm excited to do whatever I get to do that day. And still really deeply grateful to be alive at this point. Hell yeah. I'm glad he's alive. How about you guys? Yes. So what takeaways? Pretty tepid response. Come on gang. Here we go. So what takeaways can you share from this journey that you've gone through? Oh man. I think my favorite one is to take imperfect action either. I mean, it's just, I often, I hear people a lot of times say that like, Oh, you're just really lucky that you found what you're passionate about.
Justin Kruger: 44:06 And I don't think that's true. I think we all find that for the most part at some point, but I think the majority of us are afraid to actually take the action to do it, to that point of what if I'm successful? What if I'm not? Or what if I am, what does that life look like? And I don't know what that is. Right. So I think take imperfect action is probably my favorite. My favorite takeaway. Yeah. What advice would you give to people that are dealing with similar struggles like this with mental health and perhaps feeling like lost in their life or that haven't connected with that passion and purpose? Yeah, so I think have experiences, find experiences, try different things. It's really hard when you're struggling. I mean, that's like one of the hardest things you can tell someone to do and I get that.
Justin Kruger: 44:52 But again, you have to take imperfect action, right? You have to find the things right. I mean for me it was, I was lucky I was invited by someone I was dating and I got to go find that opportunity, but I could've just as easily said no or I could've just as easily canceled that morning cause it was something new and it was terrifying to me to do anything outside of my comfort zone. So again, I think it's take action, have experiences and then when you find the things that give you purpose and passion, have the courage to take action here. Here, any final parting words?
Justin Kruger: 45:26 No. No. I think I think I just gave them, I think that it's, we are hardwired as human beings to help others. That's, that's part of our DNA. It's part of who we are. So find a way to do that, that matters to you and keep doing it. Where can people find you on the interwebs? We're on my space and no. Yes, that would be awesome though. Which is set up on mine. Have you customize your profile? Yeah, my favorite songs right at the top. Fantastic. No. So our website project, helping.org everything we do sort of funnels out from there. So. Fantastic. Well, Justin, thank you so much, brother. I appreciate you being here. Keep doing all this great, fantastic work.
Justin Kruger: I appreciate it. Thank you.
Gabe Ratliff: 46:19 Well, that's it for this episode. If this is your first time listening, thank you so much for being here. I really hope you enjoyed the show. The Artful Entrepreneur podcast comes out bi-weekly and is available every other Thursday for your enjoyment and all links and show notes for this episode can be found at theartful.co if you haven't yet, please subscribe to the show and leave a rating or review on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you'd like to be a guest or know someone that would be a great fit, please go to theartful.co/guest and thanks again for listening. Until next time.