004: Josh Mattison - Getting intimate through the power of audio

Independent radio producer and designer, Josh Mattison, is the creator of the award-winning podcast, Denver Orbit, an audio magazine featuring voices, stories, and music from Colorado’s creative community.  In addition to Denver Orbit, Josh is also co-host of The Revisitors, a podcast where he and Patrick Brown take a look back at movies and albums to see if they stand the test of time. He is also production designer for Birdy Magazine, a monthly magazine published every month in Denver, CO.

In this episode we talk about:

  • How he finds and chooses stories for the show

  • We dive deeper into some of his favorite episodes, like Episode Nineteen: Motiveless Malignity, about serial killers, like Jack the Ripper and why we have such an infatuation with them

  • And he shares several tools and resources to help aspiring podcasters 

Photo Credit: Mike Flaherty (Westword Magazine)

Photo Credit: Mike Flaherty (Westword Magazine)

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TRANSCRIPTION:

Josh Mattison: 00:00:00 At one point, I don't remember what story, but like I, I found myself like crying, like I'm crying because I'm listening to a really effective piece of radio and that just like that kind of that kind of like intimate storytelling like it's in your ears, your maybe you're jogging or, or, or I'm doing the laundry or something like that, but like you get this, the super intimate experience and it just, for me it's as much as watching a really good show or lists or, or even more so almost watching a show or a movie or something like because it's just you and whatever's going on in your ears and that's such an intimate, interesting way of telling stories and I absolutely love it.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:00:43 Welcome to the Vitalic Project podcast where you'll learn how to find your own voice in a world filled with noise. I'm Gabe Ratliff. I'll be your host as I sit down with fellow artists, creators and entrepreneurs to learn more about their work and how they serve others so that you can tap into your creative purpose and live a life that's drawn, not traced. All right, I'm stoked. Let's get to it.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:01:11 Hey guys, thanks so much for being here with me. This is the vitalic project podcast, episode four. I'm Gabe Ratliff, and I'm. Your host is I help you thrive while you create with purpose. In this episode, I sit down with my buddy, designer and podcast producer Josh Mattison. He's the creator of the award winning podcast, Denver Orbit, which is an audio magazine featuring voices stories in music from Colorado's creative community. During the show, we dive into how he chooses stories for his podcast and the tools and resources that he uses as a podcast producer, and then we dive even deeper into some of the stories that he's produced on the show like episode 19, motiveless malignity. Yeah, try, try saying that 10 times fast. It's about serial killers like Jack the Ripper and why we have such an infatuation with them. It's a fantastic conversation. I absolutely love Josh. He's just an amazing husband and father and he is just continued to blossom and grow as a producer and A. I'm excited for you guys to meet him and to learn more about his show. So let's jump in. Josh. Thanks so much for being here, brother. Welcome to the show.

Josh Mattison: 00:02:36 Thanks. I'm excited to be here. I'm glad that I get to be here at the beginning of the show and nudge my way up to the front of the line so it's good.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:02:44 Yes sir. Yes sir. Well, I thought we would start off with um, you know, you just telling us a little bit about yourself and what you're up to.

Josh Mattison: 00:02:53 Okay. Well, my sort of paying day job as a graphic designer. Mostly, I work for a magazine called Birdy, but my aspirational job, if you want to call it that, is I'm an independent radio producer, so that means I try to produce radio stories more think produced stories like edited soundtracked, all that kind of stuff. I'd been running a podcast called Denver Orbit around that idea. And Denver Orbit is an audio magazine that features voices, stories, and music from Colorado's creative community. Uh, so I produce 95 percent of everything that goes on there. And we have musicians as well. And yeah, that's, that's a little bit about me. I'm a father got two great kids and husband, of course. Yeah, that's me. That's what I do.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:03:50 So adorable family by the way. Just need to note that.

Josh Mattison: 00:03:55 Yeah, they're all right. Yeah. I like having them around.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:04:00 Um, and they just keep getting cuter every time I see him. Oh my gosh.

Josh Mattison: 00:04:04 Yeah. Yeah. Ridiculous.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:04:07 So Josh, I want to ask you about Denver Orbit. I know this isn't your first podcast, you've been on a couple of others. Where did this idea come from?

Josh Mattison: 00:04:16 So yeah, I was on originally on a, uh, Kinda got the podcasting bug on a show called Bad or Not Bad, which was a comedy podcast where we rate everything and we pick a subject and rate whether it's bad or not bad, as a lot of fun. And I saw that you could kind of do like, I also saw from that that it was easy enough to just do a podcast sort of wherever and whenever. And then. So I started my own after that called The Revisitors with me and a friend Patrick Brown. And we did, the tagline was we take a second look back at pop culture and see if it stands the test of time, so we would look at like movies and music and just see if they hold up and, but like even before that though, I got really interested in producing radio the very first time I heard This American Life, one random weekend in the late nineties and it just had turned on the radio and then like I heard this story and it had like this really cinematic music and it was super atmospheric and it was really, really interesting and I'd never heard anything like that really on the radio before because there wasn't really at that time.

Josh Mattison: 00:05:23 And I thought to myself that is what I want to do that right there. But I couldn't think of a clear way to make that happen. There was no path forward. I mean it was like, well I could go back to school and get like a journalism degree I guess. Or I could start, you know, maybe interning at NPR or something or a seep Colorado Public Radio or whatever. But I couldn't, you know, back then you couldn't just like buy a mic and a computer and do it yourself. You had to have access to, you know, a studio and all that kind of thing. So it just Kinda, I just kind of let it go. But while I was making these other podcasts, I realized that not only could I make my own more produced sounding podcasts, but I actually might be able to turn that turned my whole career towards doing something like that.

Josh Mattison: 00:06:08 And so in a sense, that's why I started Denver orbit for me at least. That's why I'm. That was kind of my motivation for doing it. And then the other motivation is I have worked, uh, worked with you. It's western shout, so we knew a lot of musicians there. And then I worked at like the Museum of Contemporary Art Denver and it worked at the Denver Art Museum and I just started meeting all these really interesting and creative people who are writers and musicians and visual artists and sound artists and all this other stuff. And I realized that there was kind of a real wealth of, of this stuff happening in the city that was really fascinating and really interesting. And so basically I just started calling people I know and saying, Hey, you know, that interesting thing you do, do you want to do that in front of a mic? And then I'll help turn it into like a radio piece. And that's basically how it all started.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:07:02 That's awesome. Yeah, I love that. Now I wanted to say because you're very specific with the title of the show and see what the community you're tapping into, you know, what was it that made you decide to really want to focus on Denver stories specifically?

Josh Mattison: 00:07:19 Yeah. Partly it's a, it was a logistics thing. Uh, you know, most of the people I know are here, I've lived here most of my life, so, and I've been doing just like I've been in and out of creative scenes, um, but not really producing much, but just kind of knowing people who are doing a lot of interesting things. And so it just was, to me, it was just sort of, it was, it was partly logistics because I don't know anyone outside of Denver necessarily that many people anyway. And partly it was just, I thought, you know, it's like I really want to be able to showcase voices that some are well known in the Denver scene, but it was also really important to me to provide a place for people who might not necessarily have a access to a platform on a magazine or their own magazine or broadcast or website or whatever to maybe put their creative material out there in some way. And so part of what I do is I like to have people on who are already kind of well known and have their thing, but I also really like to Kinda mix it up with people who nobody knows and are just doing something interesting and cool. And, and, and to have that be also part of the show as well. So I want to have like a really wide breadth of creative people on the show. And that's partly why I did it in Denver is because I'm, you know, because there are people here who are doing a lot of really interesting things.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:08:53 Yeah, absolutely. I just saw you and congratulations. I know you've, you've gone over your year anniversary in July and just launched episode 26 with Adam Learner from MCA Denver.

Josh Mattison: 00:09:08 Yeah. Yes. That was a, that was funny. That was um, so that came about because I, I had a booth, uh, this thing called the Denver Zine Fest, which is a really cool festival put on by a group called the Denver Zine Library and they, they're basically zines like old schools, zines, you know, photocopied all that kind of stuff. And so they get all of these people together who are making these deans and they, they put them at their library. And so I know one of the people who runs it, Kelly is a friend of mine and he was on the show and told the story and so I asked him, Hey, what, what about um, audio magazine at the Denver Zine Fest. So he, so we went and I put up a little pop up booth with like a recording booth and a listening station so people just could like record a story if they wanted to or they could just listen to stuff that I've done and I called it take a story, leave a story, and then through that this person from Crush Walls, which is a street art fest in town, approached me about doing an episode about street art. So, uh, it was funny because she put me back in touch with Adam Lerner, who I hadn't talked to you since I worked at the museum and I interviewed him about how he wanted to talk about the museum, like the Contemporary Art Museum's role in street art and, and it's uh, it's a pretty fiery interview. He has a lot of really strong opinions about that. So that was super fun. Like it's just cool. It's just like in the business we call it good tape, like some of the things he was saying. I was just sitting there, I like, oh, I'm so glad. He's so glad I'm taping this conversation. I was like, I was like, so, you know, like, why do you, why do you think that street art doesn't really find its way into museums considering how popular it is? And he was like, oh, it's snobbery basically shit like that. Like I was like, oh, that's awesome. I really loved this conversation. Uh, so, uh, that was great. So it was great to be able to, to, to put that out there. And then I actually work with a couple of different radio producers who produce stories for the show too. I've worked with them and I don't know, unfortunately I don't have any money to pay them, but they are nice enough to produce radio stories for the show. And so then we had somebody do this street art tour downtown and she did a kind of question and answer sort of interview while this person did their street art tour. So that was the latest episode. But, and honestly it's not always like Adam Learner but, but, uh, that was, uh, it was a fun episode to do for sure. I mean it's just, it's, and they're all fun in some way or another. I mean sometimes they're super intimate stories. There's one from like earlier in the summer about a guy who talked about he demands more about um, what it feels like to kind of lose his hearing. He's in the middle of losing his hearing and so it's a really super emotional story about like that kind of sound and that was a great story to do because I got to really play with like the soundscape and I got to really dig into it and like, like he would say things like sometimes my ears sound like a chainsaw. Sometimes it sounds like an ocean roaring. I kind of like stepped sounds up and I had them playing in each year and it was, you know, I tried to kind of mimic through sound design, like the way he was talking. And so, I mean it's just a really fun show to produce with like a lot of really rich possibilities for, for, you know, what can come next. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's awesome. I love like, I absolutely love it. Like when I get to do stories like that, like I just like my spine tingles, you know what I mean? Like it's like, oh, this is so exciting. I'm a nerd. So radio nerds, it's just like, oh, this is.

New Speaker: 00:12:55 Yeah, and I mean that's, that's one of the reasons I love talking to you about it so much is how passionate you are about it and that you know, that next level that you bring to it and that you want to put that much effort into it. You know, that you want to put the listener in that person's shoes and go beyond just telling their story, but actually add to those senses and, and, and get into these fascinating stories. I remember you shared this one story about the guy who was on a glacier and. Oh yeah. I want to maybe share a little bit about that story. I thought that one was just fascinating.

Josh Mattison: 00:13:29 Yeah. I went to this random. I go to a lot of storytelling events and stuff like that just to like. Because now that I've sort of tapped out all the people I know have to reach out a little wider than that. Um, so like I went into this random, like science storytelling event where this guy told this story about how he was on a glacier and then I was like, that was a great story. Come tell it on my podcast. So he just came over to the house and told the story. And the story is he was on a glacier doing some kind of science. I'm not entirely sure, like it was a little bit technical stuff and it involves just kind of like how we can his, his whole thing is how we can study the planet to see what life might be like on other planets. I mean that's his entire a thing which is awesome. Like that's just like what a great thing to study, you know what I mean? And like, so they were doing like some ice core samples on this glacier and one of his buddies was Kinda had climbed up to the top and was standing on the Ta like a top near them of this glacier. And was like, took some pictures and like wave to everybody and then he started to come down, but him just the act of him being on top of the glacier made the entire collapse. Like the whole thing collapsed from basically out, from under their feet and they had to gather all their equipment as fast as they can and run. And basically it was one of those things like while they were, it was like almost cinematic, you know, like while they're running, the whole thing is collapsing around them. So it's just, he's, he's a good storyteller because kind of his thing is like, he likes to talk about science in front of lots of different people. So he had a lot of practice kind of telling the story and it was really fun story to put onto the, uh, onto the show.

New Speaker: 00:15:20 Oh yeah. Yeah. I love it. I mean, God, it's just mindblowing what that must have been like.

Josh Mattison: 00:15:26 Yeah. I can't imagine. I can't even imagine. Well, watching the ground you're on like no longer exists. It's kind of like, oh, that's not good.

New Speaker: 00:15:38 Yeah. Surrounded by an ocean. Right. It's not like, oh, you know, I'm on the mainland and there was like a little, you know, I mean like an avalanche is one thing, but when you're like on the glacier that is falling off.

Josh Mattison: 00:15:53 Yeah. Oh totally. We actually wound up producing a version, a print version of that story for Birdy Magazine eventually, which was pretty cool.

New Speaker: 00:16:01 Nice. Yeah. So I'm curious then, you touched on this a little bit, but how do you choose your guests and the stories for the show? I mean, how do you kind of, you know, because I'm sure I know you've shared with me people that you think would be great for this show, which I love that and thank you for that, but how do you, How do you do that when you're scouring, you know, our metropolis?

Josh Mattison: 00:16:29 it's, it can be a little challenging sometimes, honestly, but there's always. The funny thing is there's always somebody in something always happens where it's like, oh, well that person knows somebody who knows somebody at. At the beginning I really had to reach out a lot to do and kind of rely fairly heavily on them, you know? And people I knew who also knew other people as well. I used to have a cohost who unfortunately had to leave the city, just couldn't afford to live here anymore. I'm on a barista salary, so he's, he's off a on a spiritual quest, but that's another story. But he knew, but he knew a guy who, uh, who had a roommate who was a marine and like, and told this great story and I don't want to say the twist here, that it's an incredible story with an amazing twists. And so that was one of the first stories we produced. And then from there it just kind of branched out. But, um, he knew some people who are writers and I knew some people who were writers. And like I also, you know, I know people at the, at suspect press, which is another kind of magazine around town and Birdie. And so I started reaching out to people I knew at those places who were doing interesting things like that would read something and Birdie and go, oh, that would actually make like a really good radio piece. So I'll just call them up and see if they wanted to do it. And also my friend at the beginning, especially ron doyle who runs the narrators. Do you know that? That's. I'm familiar. Yeah. It's a live storytelling show around town and they do like once a month then. So I knew Ron and Ron was super helpful in getting me people to, to talk on the show and then from there it's just kind of grown out because, you know, when you meet people they also know creative people and those creative people also know other creative people. And so it's sort of, it started to branch out that way. And now finally I have people reaching out to me and uh, I don't have to do as much outreach, but basically it just, it's all at this point, it's all word of mouth. It's just people who know people who are doing interesting things. Oh. And a music wise, I actually, there's a person I lean very heavily on, uh, her name is Claudia Woodman and she books a lot of like weird music around town and I love weird music. And so she started sending a whole bunch of musicians my way and some of them were really interesting to the point where it's like, oh, it's not just a song, they actually have a cool story about their song or these guys who run this Weirdo tape collective art label thing, um, who were just had this like really radical idea of like how you should listen to experimental music. And so they did a thing about them as well. So it comes from everywhere and it, it just has started kind of exponentially getting a little bit bigger and bigger and it helps going out to places like the dead Rozene fast and knowing people in that community and, and knowing people in the music community and getting to meet more people that way. But there's no real. I don't have like a real specific process do it. It's just like, it's just kind of organic in that sense. And like I said, there are a handful of people who are actually contacting me, which is really cool.

New Speaker: 00:19:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Especially, you know, to be into the level that you are at this point where you've, you know, kind of got it a nice foundation and you've been building your following and so it's, it's so great to hear that you're now getting submissions to a degree, you know, you're not just having to keep looking because I'm, I'm thinking about that same thing. That's why I'm curious is, you know, as you, you know, you want it to, to align with the show and what you're trying to do and you want it to align with what your interests are. Yeah. You know, and what you're going to be passionate about getting into which you're so passionate about it. I just, I love, I love hearing these. I wanted to ask about the episode with the twists. Do you remember what number that is? Just so if people want to check it out.

Josh Mattison: 00:20:35 Oh yeah. That's um, so that is, I think what we did it as a two parter initially. I'm just because I didn't know if the audience would want to sit through like a whole hour long at the beginning because basically the show like to 10 to 15 minute segments and sandwiching a song of some kind, so I'll have like the piece and then a song in a piece and I didn't, didn't honestly know if we were, I was at where the audience would want to tolerate sitting there for an entire half hour just on one story. Um, so I initially put it into two episodes at the very beginning, but let me just take a look, but I put it out. I stitched them back together and release that whole episode in February last year and it's, looks like sandwiched between 15 and 16 and it's called the Great Pretender. Is the name of the story.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:21:30 Nice. Yeah.

Josh Mattison: 00:21:31 And it's, it's great. It's a great story. And now I don't want to give anything away over the title. Just kind of alludes to the twist. But um, um, but I don't want a. But it's a really, really interesting story and that to me stories like that are fascinating. And I. So what I do with the show is I kind of like, I got two people and I produce all their stories and I'd put their stuff on the radio and all that, and then I kind of used that as a way like, okay, well then in the meantime I'm going to work on a documentary and then I'll put out a documentary or an interesting story that I'm kind of chasing down myself. So it's not just a place for other people to put their work on, but also I like to produce my own stories and put those out every now and again. But it takes a lot of time and effort and energy to make a documentary. You said they, they take some time to put together

Gabe Ratliff: 00:22:22 Mhmm. Mhmm. yeah.

Josh Mattison: 00:22:24 Yeah. It's just, it's not like, it's not an easy thing. Like there's research and then there's people you'll have to interview and like, you know, like stories never. They're never. It's never like, oh, I'll get one person to talk and that'll be the story. Unfortunately. Like I was working on A. I've been working on the past three months on a documentary about a guy named Alan Berg who was a radio DJ here in Denver in the early eighties and was murdered by white supremacists and so I've been working on that documentary kind of on the side, so I've interviewed like a historian about this white supremacist group and then I'm going to interview some people about Allan Burke himself and then that'll be put out as a documentary that at some point down the line whenever I finish it, but you know, I do have room to work on it and make it breathe and really make it good because I have a chance to dig into that kind of storytelling, which is awesome.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:23:16 Yeah. Well, yeah. Oh my gosh. And interestingly enough, you know, it's also relevant. Yes. There's times that we live in now, you know, like that hearing that term white supremacists and things like that come up and those kinds of backlashes on people is in the media now. So I'm excited about that one.

Josh Mattison: 00:23:37 Yeah, I'm excited about it too. And you know, I'm choosing it because it is relevant. I mean, there's, there's, it's, it's not just like a random thing I interested in, it's like, no, this is actually like, it's important to keep on having this discussion, you know, and we can do that through producing stories about it even if they aren't directly about, you know, our current state. But they, they comment on it in a sense. Yeah.

New Speaker: 00:24:03 Yeah. What, so I guess I want to ask you first, you know, what, what is your, what is your favorite episode so far that you've done that just really hit all the cylinders for you?

Josh Mattison: 00:24:18 Oh man, um, it could be the Great Pretender, but we also did one that I really, really like where we talked to some people about like the kind of the boom and true crime and everyone's interest in like serial killers and all that. So I talked with like a professor and then we had a friend of ours talk on, on about it and we called the episode Motiveless Malignity. Um, which is a great phrase, a great turn of phrase. And, and so we, we, we talked about like Jack the Ripper and then we talked about serial killers, but we didn't talk about it like, you know, like are these crazy crimes. We actually more like why do we love these crimes so much, like what's the draw here, what is, what is so interesting about that, you know. And so that's one of my other personal favorites and that was another one that like that when actually took some time to have, to produce because we had to interview people and we had to research in all that kind of thing. And, and so I was, I had been, had been putting like working on that for a while by the time it finally came out.

New Speaker: 00:25:26 Yeah. I'm, I mean I'm right there with you. I mean my mom, funny thing she read, she was a big horror fan. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. And I totally followed suit. I mean, she, I found out years ago that she was reading her novels when she had all three of us and oh well my brother and sister and, and she, you know, it was white watching her. I remember watching horror films with her when I was really young. I remember Friday the 13th and you know, all these slasher movies that were really big back then and you know, are they enough? I totally followed suit and tie as well and, but she also is a really big fan, especially I think more recent days is a really big fan of true crime as well. And I'd follow suit again. I mean I just, I'm really fascinated with those as well and you know, I minored in psychology in school and that I think plays a big part for me, like the, the Mindhunter series on Netflix.

Josh Mattison: 00:26:27 Oh, it's fantastic.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:26:28 Fantastic. Yeah, it's fascinating, right?

Josh Mattison: 00:26:31 It really is.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:26:32 The mind. And once they started to tap into, you know, what, what is a serial killer and you know, when they became a name and they were actually profiling and figuring out what I mean, that's what a fascinating time to focus on in that series because that really is what hit the nail for me. I was like, Oh man, this is, this is where it's at because this is where it all begins to kind of the same thing with Jack the Ripper and the turn of the century and alienists.

Josh Mattison: 00:26:59 Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Called it stranger murder for awhile. The, you know, there's an interesting thing about serial killers and why, like I, I sort of decided to point the episode at why we like serial killers rather rather than the serial killers themselves. I was listening, I was doing some research for the show and I ran into this story of Gary Ridgway who's the Green River Killer in Seattle. And he killed mostly sex workers. So he was ignored for a while because that's kind of how things go or at least went in the eighties. And finally they caught him. And this detective was going back and forth and interviewing about the crimes and he was being sorta helpful, but he was also being kind of demure and he would sort of like, you know, he would tell them a little bit and then he would kind of lie a little [inaudible] wood and who had like, it was a lot of like victim blaming when they would be like, well, why did you do it? And he'd be like, well, I was so angry at her for, for, you know, for telling me something or speaking to me the way she did and she made me really mad and all that kind of stuff. And, and, and, and so they would kind of go back and forth and, and the, the investigator over the course of days, by the way. And so the investigator was getting super frustrated, really, really frustrated with, with, um, with the way the interviews are growing. And finally he just, and it's on tape, by the way, it's a chilling moment. Radiolab has it on tape and he asks him and he goes, but why, Gary? Why did you kill these women? Why did you do it? I don't understand. And that's the central question about serial killers. Right? And he just goes, I just needed to kill. And to me that's one of the most. It's just chilling because there's no, there's no great answer to it. I mean, you know, what's his name? David Berkowitz said that his dog made him do it. Right. It's like we'll never really know why because it's, I don't know, a mental illness or a cross wiring in the brain or some kind of chemical imbalance or something we don't actually know. Right. There's no real science to define that necessarily. So the best we can do is just kind of guess and, and, and to me that is what makes those crimes so fascinating I think. And what makes them fascinating too is a lot of people is, they seem so random and weird. You know what I mean?

New Speaker: 00:29:21 Yeah. And I, the thing I really, really appreciated about coming back to that Mindhunter show is that they, they, they really tapped into the idea of, of our childhood and how pivotal our childhood is in the, what might seem minor when you're older and you've kind of forgotten about it, but when you have this kind of check in about things, I would sit there and be thinking about mine and be like, oh my gosh, if I had gone that way or if that has gone this way, who knows what that means, you get it. Then you start getting that philosophical debate of nature versus nurture and all those things. What exactly what you're talking about where they could just, my dog told me or I just needed to kill or, or I mean, that's just absolutely fascinating to see just as complex as humans are. So are their reasons for why they do things.

Josh Mattison: 00:30:14 Totally. And that's, you know, essentially that's what attracted me and Ryan, my co host at the time to the, uh, to the subject as we just were like, let's just talk about it. But, but let's talk about it in a way that sort of directed, you know, and, and make it into a whole episode and with sound effects and sound design and score and all that. So I'm, I'm pretty proud of that. Um, because I do like it when I get to chase something down my own rabbit hole and then it turns out to be a really interesting story. So it turned out that what I like is, uh, is, is interesting. So, uh, let's throw it on tape and see what happens.

New Speaker: 00:30:54 What, what would you say is your most surprising, either a subject or conversation or episode, like when you were done with it, which one would, would you say really was the one that Kinda came out maybe different than you thought or are just really surprised you?

Josh Mattison: 00:31:09 Uh, that's a good question. Let me look at the list here. Um, you know, the, the, the one I was telling you about where I'm John Kotter is the author was talking about losing his hearing. That just really, like, for one thing, it's the most listened to episode that I've made, which is really interesting because he's not like a social media guy, so I've never seen him post about it. I've never seen anything like on Instagram or Facebook about him saying like, listen to this episode of the show, so I don't, I don't know where he's telling people about it, but whatever he's doing is working because it's, a lot of people have heard this one and I, I liked that one because it's also like that one is all about like the space in your ears. So he talks about losing your hearing. Uh, this other radio producer, Shannon Guys does a piece where she's jogging and talking about what that means to her and she recorded it with what's called, um. Oh, what are they called? Microphones that go in your ears. What are they called? Do you know what I'm talking about? They're like stereo microphones that go in your ears and they're recording the right and left channel. They're really amazing. Yeah. They're really amazing and associated. Recorded a piece about jogging and you can kind of hear, hear it really well and then they're like this great sort of artist Weirdo. Um, and I don't think he'd mind me telling a, describing them that way called Diablo Montalban had this like crazy sort of avant garde piece and it all worked together and I've gotten like, a lot of people have listened to that and a lot of people have have, have come up to me and that's the one that they really, that seems to be resonating most with people. And the funny thing is, is when I put it out there I thought, oh, here's an episode. I usually don't do themes. This one kind of has a theme and so we'll just leave it at that. But man, people really responded to that one. So it's just Kinda, it's just kinda cool when that happens because it's like you put it out there, you don't know what's going to happen and then it takes on its own kind of existence outside of that. It's just cool to see that, you know.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:33:16 Yeah. Well, and I, you know, and also I mean just the Meta aspect of it, right? Like we're right where it's all audio and we're listening to it and it's around losing that sense and I know for both of us being musicians and music lovers and sound, audio loving the, the power of audio that we do.

Josh Mattison: 00:33:40 Podcasts, all of it really. Yeah.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:33:42 Right. I mean that's like a really, that's something I think about. I don't want to say often, but just as being a drummer and a Dj and thinking about tinnitus and hearing loss and things like that and just being more conscious of that as we've gotten older and gone to a lot of shows and played a lot of shows and all these things, you know, it becomes something that you're like, hm, yeah, it's, it's more, you know, a little bit more on the front of lobe than it was when we first started playing. And you're just like, I just want to play music and go to shows and I don't really care.

Josh Mattison: 00:34:14 You don't really think about it. Yeah. Like maybe you drink a little bit when in your twenties and you go to the loud shows and you're drinking and you're not really paying attention. And then you wake up with a hangover and like a ringing in your ears. Now we know is those, those aren't your cells dying basically is what you're hearing. And, and like I went to a restaurant the other night and it was too loud. Like I was like, I can't actually eat here because I won't be able to hear a word. The person I was with, my wife wouldn't, wouldn't be able to hear a word she said or the, or the waiter or any of it, like I wouldn't have been able to hear anything. So I was like, I'm sorry, like we either have to cut a table outside or I can't eat here. And they were at the restaurant. It's like, oh, totally, let's eat outside. But like that, it was just the space itself and restaurants kind of are designed this way. Um, some of them. Um, and that's, that can be a little frustrating like losing your hearing because I'm just, you know, in my mid forties. So it's just something I'm more aware of now, which is kind of sucks when you're having to ask your partner a couple of times. What did you say? What did you say? Yeah, yelling from the other room. It's true and sometimes like if it's really loud I can, if I'm or somebody talks really quietly if I'm not like looking at their lips while they talk, like I actually am like, no, I can't hear you

New Speaker: 00:35:38 so well. And I've found that I'm, I'm so focused audibly in life that, you know, if there's music playing, you know, I'm listening to it in the background while somebody is talking to me and sometimes I get distracted because I'm like, oh, this song or, or I just, I'm just distracted by it. Or even if, you know, uh, you know, in a coffee shop if there's like a lot of chatter around and I have earbuds in, I, you know, I either have to turn up the music enough to cover it completely or some podcast or whatever and listening to you just so I can't hear it because I'm just so distracted.

Josh Mattison: 00:36:14 Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean if I, like when I was working at, at the contemporary art, they had a mark mothersbaugh show. Oh. And I love Mark Mothersbaugh on Tivo, but like there was a loop running in one of the galleries that was close to the front desk where I worked. And um, that loop would go on like about an hour long. I think it was like a bunch of different, like live shows kind of stitched together and man by like the end of that, the run of that show, like I was like, I was like, just hearing that on repeat over and over again, kind of like drilled into my brain a little bit. Oh, it's like, oh, I can't fucking listen to this anymore at all. You know?

Gabe Ratliff: 00:36:52 I think that that in the summers when I hear the ice cream truck there, I'm like, there's no way I could've ever had that job. I would have gone nuts and killed the people because my dog told me and because I

Josh Mattison: 00:37:06 Totally. Yeah, that's the exact right. Oh Man. It's so funny and I think like a lot of people, like my wife doesn't really like, she likes music and she sort of into it, but she doesn't. It's not like, like she wouldn't have that kind of reaction to something, you know? It's like, so it's interesting like just how our brains work ethic. Especially like you said, people who are more kind of tuned into audio like we are

New Speaker: 00:37:31 Mhmm. Yeah. I mean you just really pick up on it in it. Just sitting there and sitting as I totally get where you're coming from with eating. I've been in places where I'm like, this is pointless or yeah, if it's like a bar, a bar situation. And not that long ago, we were hanging out with some friends and we hit a couple of places down on Broadway and we wanted a different vibe so we went to this new place and put it was way louder and good music and everything, but I can't hear hardly any that was doing what you were talking about was staring at lips and it's trying to find, try and like. I think I heard what you said and I'll just keep my head. Yup. Cool. Yes, no produced. That's like super basic communication. You're like, this is so much fun. I have no idea what you said the last hour.

Josh Mattison: 00:38:22 Right. right.

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Gabe Ratliff: 00:38:56 So I love seeing this progression that you've gone on. You've already talked about how much we love the power of audio and you know, being musicians and everything and just having this connection with radio and podcasting and everything. What was it that originally made you decide to want to be a podcast producer at a radio producer in the way that you are to the level that you are? What, what was it that kind of initiated that process and just hooked you.

Josh Mattison: 00:39:25 Again, I think I have to go back to to hearing This American life for the first time and then. And then very quickly after that Radiolab got sort of was hot on the heels of that and, and radio lab especially had just had a huge impact on the way I think about audio and audio storytelling because it's, you know, those, I don't want to overuse the word cinematic, but their approach to it is so was anyway at the time. So groundbreaking. I mean just taking those stories seriously enough to give them the room to breathe. Like the not like sort of regular radio stories where you have maybe four to five minutes, maybe 10 if it's like a special story, you know, that, that NPR does or something like that and those are great but like to really get, give something, the time to breathe, to tell the story well to really end to tell actual stories, not just like a news story or um, you know, kind of like a human interest story which is kind of what you hear a lot or heard a lot up to that point on the radio. But I mean I, I, you know, like, like at one point, I don't remember what story but like I found myself like crying, like I'm crying because I'm listening to a really effective piece of radio and that just like that kind of that kind of like intimate storytelling. Like it's in your ears, your, maybe you're jogging or I'm doing the laundry or something like that. But like you get this super intimate experience and it just, for me it's, it's as much as watching a really good show or listen or, or even more. So almost watching a show or a movie or something like because it's just you and whatever's going on in your ears and that's such an intimate, interesting way of telling stories and I absolutely love it. Like I love that kind of storytelling and, and I've, I've heard so many over the years, I've heard I've listened to so many different kinds of documentaries from like starting there and then going into like the BBC has been putting out documentaries for decades. Apparently I didn't know that but what I do now, um, but like, and there's like a lot more in the podcasts have matured. There's a lot more interesting storyteller entering that space and I find it all really inspiring. Like when I watch something like mine hunter, like, uh, we were talking about, or did you ever watch the Netflix documentary series wormwood? Not, no, not yet, but that's the British show. No, it's the documentary. It's a limited documentary series about the Errol Morris, the documentary and put out about, um, the CIA's um, uh, elice lsd experiments. It's fucking fantastic. And like, yes, yes I have seen that, but I know what you're talking about. Yeah, it's really, really, really good. I highly recommend it. But um, even like watching something like that or, or mind hunter or whatever, like I start to think like, how can I make a story like this for the radio? Like I just, my brain just starts ticking off those boxes and it's like, it's almost something that I'm doing subconsciously at this point in that like, so I'm just, I don't know exactly what it is that draws me to this form, but something about radio and, and listening to stories instead of watching them is just, I find like it's just, maybe it's the intimacy, maybe it's the immediacy of it. Maybe it's that your, your imagination has to work a little harder to start filling in those visual pictures that you're not seeing. Um, and the really good shows, sound design and music plays a heavy role in that. And as you mentioned, uh, you know, we're both music people so to me like being able to use music and that's a big passion of mine when I make radio is, is finding like that just that perfect score, a perfect moment of like how do you bring that in and then how do you stop the score and let that play out in order to give that person what that person just said, like space to breathe. I sit in front of the computer and I do this and I get really into it. And some point I just have to be like, fuck it, it's good. Put it out. You know, I can't spend another hour doing this although I could easily. But like, since it's every, it's a biweekly show, I do have to like, all right, stop, stop it. It's fine but it out. But I love it. Like I just, that, that kind of like just working on that kind of granular level like and understanding or trying to understand. I wouldn't say that I'm an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but attempting to understand how that kind of storytelling works is just, it's just so much fun to me.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:44:03 Yeah, yeah. I, I hear you. I love the way you explain it to you because I think it really kind of sets the stage for people that might not but might not know and I love hearing about how, you know, watching a show like Wormwood or Mindhunter or something like that, and then trying to figure out how to translate that to audio and what that's like. And you know, when you think about if you just turned your tv off and listened to a show like that, that's essentially what you're doing. But you have to be even more thoughtful about the audio because you don't have the luxury of seeing a scene. You have to put people in that space and you can't just put audio. You have to really think about how to use the audio in a powerful way to put that visually in someone's mind. I just, I love it. It's like reading a book, right? It's like, right, exactly by creating your own visions in your head, but by your, what you're hearing,

Josh Mattison: 00:44:59 Every medium has its own kind of way of doing that. I mean you mentioned books and so authors will say like, they'll give you a really descriptive passage so you know exactly what it is that you're, where you are in the book and what it looks like and all that. And they're, you know, good authors are really good at using language to set that up. And uh, you know, obviously on TV that doesn't need as much of an explanation because you kind of get the whole package, visual, audio writing, all of it. Acting comes out there. And, and with, with podcasts and good radio storytelling, it's, it's all in the writing and it's all in the music like a, if you have a good talker that can, that's a huge, huge part of it as well.

New Speaker: 00:45:39 I was going to ask, you know, what, what is your favorite part of, because you've mentioned several things. I was just wondering, do you have a favorite part about producing these shows? Like what's, you know, some people love the editing, some people love, you know, the, the actual interviewing. I'm just curious, do you have a favorite?

Josh Mattison: 00:45:56 I, I'd say probably for me the, the sort of production end of it. So like the sound, design scoring and editing is really what I love. Like I love like even to the point like I get so satisfied if I can pick something somebody said and match it up with something else they said and then make it seamlessly sound like they said all of that in one go, right. It makes them sound great and it's a. If you're listening and you don't hear any audible cuts and you don't hear like, but I know if you're looking at my document I like on this side of it like cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. Like it's just like tiny little segments that I've smooshed back together and when, if you can't hear that I love it. I love that kind of granular detail and like, and really, but I do love scoring because I'm not a musician in the way that I make my own scores. I use usually publicly available music for that, but that, that's probably my favorite thing because then when you edit a piece like that, then you maybe have to give it a little space where like you want the music to swell while the person's telling a story about something, but also the absence of music is a huge part of that as well. And so just kind of like figuring out all that timing and those emotional beats and cues and how to match that up to the right kind of music. That's my favorite thing to do. Probably my least favorite is writing. I'm not a great writer. That's something you need to practice a lot and I'm not a great interviewer. So those two things are kind of my weak spots that I need need to. Uh, I need to really get cracking on that a little bit. Take a maybe audit a class or something. I don't know, you know what I mean? Like I feel like I maybe need to get a little bit more of a, of a help with that, but if I can sidetrack for a second, one of the things that I love about this, then that's a little different than what I've done professionally it to this point is I know where I'm at. Like I know where my weak points are, I know what I need to learn and I know that I don't know. I know what I don't know and I know what I need to learn and I'm excited about learning and I feel like that's always going to be the case with this. Then I'm always going to be able to learn and grow and I've, I haven't always felt that way professionally. You know, I'm just happy to do a decent job, but that's not the case. It's like, no, I want to keep learning and I want to keep understanding what makes this so what, what makes this such a dynamic medium.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:48:13 Yeah. Well that was actually a perfect segue to my next question I was going to ask you, now that you've done a, you know, over a year of the show, you've got 26 episodes under your belt. I was just wondering like how do you feel now after having this show done for a year and you know, do you have advice for, you know, other podcasters out there that want to do this kind of full on radio production?

Josh Mattison: 00:48:36 Sure. So what I'm doing is I'm sort of, so I'm really at this point now that I've, like you said, made the show for about a year now. I'm really branching out and trying to find different opportunities that are actually available in the, in the space and a lot of that professional space is through look radio and other other things of that nature, grants and that kind of stuff. And so what I'm doing is I'm trying to, I'm trying to find these opportunities, these weird opportunities to try and grow my own practice a little bit. And like I just participated, not last weekend, but the weekend before I did something called the 24 hour radio race, which is put on by the KCRW independent producers project and basically you start at 11 in the morning on Saturday, they give you the subject and then you have till 11 in the morning on Sunday to make a four minute radio piece around that subject. Uh, so me and a partner did that and it was super challenging and it was, I don't know that I've ever worked that hard in my life for that sustained period of time. Um, but the piece we made was great. It was so, so, so good and we were so proud of it and I don't, I don't know yet. I won't know if it will win or not. But just the experience of doing it alone was like, I just felt like I just like really challenged myself. And like, I mean it's a huge challenge. And, and trying to do something like that is not the easiest thing in the world. And like, and I'm also going to a professional conference here in October in Chicago called the third coast international audio conference and so I'll be heading over to that, but. And so it's just, and that's kind of about like, and that'll be all the kind of big radio podcasts. Luminaries go there and they put on different, different conferences about are different, like things about like Oh, design or about storytelling or about being independent as opposed to not being independent. I mean it's just that there's a breadth of things you can choose from to go to these different seminars and learn about learning about how to make good radio and all that. And so that's kind of what I've been doing a little bit more of that, which is kind of professional development stuff, right? So, so I can grow and kind of grow the podcast to be better and grow my own skills to be higher. And so just you have to really in this space when you were kind of doing it independently, you have to really ferret out these own opportunities on your own because they're not, there's not like a curriculum or a school thing you can take. So basically I just keep my eyes open for anything at all that looks like that. And then you mentioned professional advice. I would say, you know, there's a basic courses on radio production if you have no idea what you're doing. Um, there's some really good resources. The third coast international audio festival has a podcast they put out called the pocket conference that has a shitload of conferences going back decades and they have a, I don't know how many episodes now, but each one focuses on a different kind of storytelling. But I would say follow your passion, figure out what kind of story it is that you'd like to tell. And then, you know, there are a number of resources out there for learning, like everything from the basics to like intermediate level stuff. But I would say just go for it. The biggest thing is just do it, you know, like he's just like, that's the hardest thing to do is take that first step, but I mean if you're really passionate and interested in it, like that first step is the big one and then from there on like there's a whole world out there. Really interesting stuff happening. Yeah, I was actually going to share. Thank you for sharing all that. That's awesome. I'll make sure to put all that in the show notes. So if people want to look into those conferences or any of those things that they can, that's a transom story. Uh, I'm sorry. The Transom Storytelling Workshop is a T-r-a-n-s-o-m Storytelling Workshop is another one that comes around a lot. I mean there's just, there's just a lot of resources and, and quickly I wanted to say like I was listening to one of those third coast conferences a few years ago and this is kind of what like kicked kicked my own ass into gear is like I heard somebody say like, listen, if you can get beyond the beginner stage, you'll be able to find work that just get yourself up to a point where you feel comfortable with the equipment and comfortable with your own kind of skills to the point where you feel like you can make radio than just you'll be able to find it. It'll be out there for you. And that was really encouraging to me.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:53:04 Yeah. Yeah. Here, here. I mean, I know that's been pivotal for me in this journey, you know, because I've been working on this, uh, w, w we had our first chat about a year ago. Yeah. And um, you know, just figuring out really what this was and getting some of the early interviews to figure out what was the feel and how does this work and try and know recording in public as well as, you know, just out to get that kind of thing versus, you know, on Skype like this or, you know, and how did that work and really bringing it to fruition and figuring out like what, you know, doing the development. It's just been just amazing and it's so inspiring to every time I do one of these, you know, it's, it's, it's new stories and getting even more connected to friends like you and, you know, just tapping more into what your passion is to share that with others. I mean, it's just, man, it's just, it's so fulfilling.

Josh Mattison: 00:54:04 Oh, I wanted to say, uh, I actually finally got some paid work. Speaking of that, like some paid work did actually shake out for me.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:54:11 Fantastic!

Josh Mattison: 00:54:11 So a couple. Yeah, I'm working with the. Yeah. It's like what? Okay. And they take me seriously. It's weird. Uh, I'm, I'm working a weird feeling. I'm working with the Clyfford Still Art Museums going to be putting out a podcast in, in conjunction with their newest. I'm opening night in about a week and a half and so I've been, I'm what's called the consulting producer on that project and that has been just so awesome. Just so good and it's just fascinating and it's a great. Like I will say, I think they actually have put together, it'll be about maybe 40 minutes long because it's like eight minutes per gallery space and there's four galleries so you'll be able to listen to the podcast while you go through the galleries and they will. Yeah, it's really cool. And you could either do it like there, they'll have like a little listening station and headphones and can put on or you'll be able to just call it up on your iphone or whatever, but they like the show itself is so good that I've been like, I want to start pitching this. Like, it'll be about, like I said, about 40 minutes when it's all done and I was like, I want to start pitching this to like some of these podcasts that played this kind of stuff and she's totally into it. So, um, hopefully we'll do that because it's really like, it's really, really good stuff and that's the other thing. And it's exciting to be part of these projects where it's like, this is really good. Yeah. So yeah, so some paid work is actually shaking out so all it took was. And that person was right, which is crazy. Like, because I kept thinking, well how's that supposed to happen? You know, about like you can get work if you want it. And I was like that's not how does that happen? And it's just like, oh, it just, if you keep on plugging away at it and you're really passionate about it and then you and you actually have a product and you can say, I have been doing this thing for a year and you can prove it, you know? I mean, like you said, I've got 26 episodes under my belt that's 13 hours of material that I myself. Then people will say, oh, okay, this person actually knows what they're doing and they can put their money where their mouth is. Right. You know?

Gabe Ratliff: 00:56:16 Yeah. And they put their money where your mouth is. (laughing)

Josh Mattison: 00:56:23 Exactly, exactly. Because podcasting was where the big money is. Kids that big money, you go for that podcasting money.

Gabe Ratliff: 00:56:35 Get it. Yeah. I did want to share with you a course that I took that I am a huge fan of Creative Live. They're based out of Seattle and San Francisco. Alex Bloomberg from NPR, who also does StartUp on Gimlet. Yeah. He um, has a course called Power Up Your Podcast or I'm sorry, Power Your Podcast With Storytelling is what it's called. Oh yeah. Really great course. And he goes into building your questions for developing the story, a pre interview with the guest through the interview and all those kinds of things like how he works and you know, those guys are award winning producers. It's just awesome to kind of go through the process with him and here's the funny stories that he shares and you know, how he looks at storytelling. I thought I would mention that one because I'm a huge advocate of creative live and uh, you know, and he's just amazing. So that was a really great course.

Josh Mattison: 00:57:36 Oh totally. And they, and they do what's called narrative. I'm like narrative storytelling and narrative even like narrative interviews, which is something I need to learn, like I don't actually know that very well. And so I, I, because I tend to put out interviews that are still a little bit fall on the line interviewee side, you know, and so I'm, I'm trying to improve those skills so well. So that is a really good resource for that. Yeah.

New Speaker: 00:57:59 And it's nice to sort of see where that comes from and I, I definitely kind took what worked for me to then pull into this type of interview style. I'm right, but I keep thinking about it and beating it up and I definitely as a producer have that same impulse to want to take the production value up and keep going with it and I just keep thinking like how to do that and you know also as a, as a filmmaker, I think about it that way. How can I do something that's more docuseries a documentary style that's totally as long format maybe, but you know, because that gets really time as you said earlier. I mean doing any kind of documentary it takes time and money. Yeah, just a huge effort. Really. Yeah, because it involves the people that you're doing it on. Anything related to that and the research and all those things that go into it and the actual capturing the footage or the content, however you're getting it in the story.

Josh Mattison: 00:59:04 Yeah, but it's such an exciting space. I'm working on another one right now. This will probably hopefully be out in mid September, but I talked to a artist about. She makes art about the Japanese internment camps because her family was in one for awhile and then, so I'm hoping to talk to a professor about archaeological site out there in Colorado, you know, way out there and in eastern Colorado where our own internment camp was. And so just being able to bring those stories to life and, and, and to give them a space is really exciting. Exciting to me. Just, I love it. I love it. Absolutely. Love it. If you ever want to collaborate on something, you let me know. Okay. I love it. Your first kids. Yep. Yep. Because I just, I just love that kind of storytelling. So if, and honestly like if, if anyone wants to collaborate on that kind of storytelling or if you've got a. I'm going to, I'm going to pitch, I'm going to do my pitch. If you've got a story or a song or a or a poem or whatever, like that door is always open and as inclusive as possible.

New Speaker: 01:00:06 Fantastic. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that because I definitely wanted you to, uh, be able to speak to that for people if they have stories or you know, if they themselves want to share something or if they know somebody. That's great. Do you have favorite tools, um, for podcasting that you like to use that, that, you know, can maybe get people started or just what you like to use for your or resources. You mentioned a public domain, music and things like that. Are there any places you like to go to that we could promote?

Josh Mattison: 01:00:40 So public domain. I go to the free music archive which just a. and then I have spent hours kind of digging through what's available for podcasts. Music Archive, they've got like switches. You can kind of check these boxes that will say like this is available and most of it is available on, on a noncommercial, licensed through Creative Commons license. I'm, a lot of it is available under that license, but not all of it is available if you maybe have a paid podcast or something like that. Right. So that way you can make money off of somebody else's work, but some of it is so you can kind of click those boxes and see what works for you and then just I, you know, the thing about that is then it takes a lot of research to just sort of dig through and find music you think is appropriate for the project you're working on. And so that can take a little time, but it's free. So the free music archive.org is a great place to go. NPR, if you will, NPR training, um, they have a whole website setup, training.npr.org, a lot of really good articles about how to, how to, how to start making radio transom.org. Tra and SOM transom.org is another place. There's a podcast also another podcast called how sound or they talk about how to make that kind of radio. So there's a ton of material out there to just kind of immerse yourself in if this is, if this is how you want to go.

New Speaker: 01:02:10 Fantastic. What podcasts do you listen to?

Josh Mattison: 01:02:15 Oh Good God, too many. It's funny, you know, my kind of my favorite podcasts and I recognized like not the best podcast but kind of my favorite podcast is one called, it's just called we hate movies and it's for Comedians in New York who make fun of movies and that's like, that's my, that's my downtime. I just don't want to have to like think about like storytelling and narrative arcs and all that shit and just like listened to four guys make fun of a bad movie. So that's, that is way up there for me. But Gosh, it almost say there's one. The KCRW independent producers project puts out some really interesting stuff. So recently there was one called Welcome to LA, uh, which is just kind of like stories about characters in LA and it's really well produced and it's really interesting and there's a lot. Another one they put out called last notes that I think is fantastic and I'm trying to pick ones that you don't probably wouldn't already know. Like, I mean sort of if you're already taking like This American Life and Serial and all of the gimlet shows and all that as kind of a of a given, you know what I mean? Like if you're into podcast, you probably know about all those shows. Anyway, Gimlet is Alex Bloomberg's podcasting network. They have a lot of great stuff on there. So I'm trying to pick things that aren't necessarily on those bigger networks where they have a lot of, a lot of pole and a lot of people know about them and they win awards and all that kind of stuff, which is cool. But like I like to, I've been kind of digging things that are like a little left of center from there for myself anyway, just because it also is like, you know, using different elements like avant garde story elements and avant garde sound elements to make a story. Stuff like that. Like really kind of getting out there a little bit for me because they, it's almost like you need to learn the rules to break them in. Yes. So, uh, that's kind of what. But I like, yeah, so um, but I listened to it, gosh, I don't know too many to list everything from true crime to comedy to say documentary series to, you know, chatty chat podcast. I mean I listened to just about everything. So it's if I just list of it, it would get boring really quickly as we wind down now I'm going to switch to some, just kind of like quicker response questions. I always like having a few of these at the end up being that we are both. So I'm massively into media in all of its forms. I wanted to ask is there a piece of art or music, film, literature that has directly influenced your life? Oh Gosh, you know, I want to throw it out there and my favorite movie of all time is aliens. I don't know how that's in. It's my favorite movie of all time and I just, I've watched it maybe 20 times, maybe more than that even and I don't know how it's directly influenced my life because I'm not like a horror guy and I don't make like fiction necessarily. But like, I just like, to me, it's such an interesting tight story with a lot of great characters and uh, maybe that's got something to do with it, but that's probably, that's like if you're just to like ask me what's your favorite movie like quickly, right off the bat. Aliens. Yeah, no doubt.

Gabe Ratliff: 01:05:37 That's definitely in my top 10, top five actually.

Josh Mattison: 01:05:41 Yeah, I'd imagine a lot of people our age it is,

Gabe Ratliff: 01:05:45 It's just such a perfect film in so many ways. From start to finish. Yeah. That one comes up a lot, especially with my critic, critic, critic friends, critical friends like you, I will talk about it and they'd always. It always coming up. It's just such a perfect film even though the first one launched a genre and all that

Josh Mattison: 01:06:05 Oh, the first one's great. There's no doubt about it. But um, but kind of my personal favorite is this one. Yeah.

Gabe Ratliff: 01:06:14 Next question is kind of a followup to that. If you could have only one medium, uh, which would you choose?

Josh Mattison: 01:06:25 Podcasts

Gabe Ratliff: 01:06:25 That one seemed like kind of a trick question, but not a. But yeah. I'm always curious because it doesn't have to necessarily be the medium we're talking about.

Josh Mattison: 01:06:36 Yeah, or music. I mean music is huge to me to. It would almost be tough to make that decision, but like I could probably take or leave. I mean I love movies and television is so great right now, but like honestly I, I spend, you know, just on virtue of like how many hours do I spend doing stuff? Like don't watch her movies as much as I do listen to podcasts. So yeah, that would have to either one and the and the breadth of what's available out there was enormous. I mean, whatever you can think of, there's probably a podcast about it. So. And if not, you should start it. Exactly.

New Speaker: 01:07:13 Yeah. I keep seeing new ones. I can't remember the name of it, but I just turned my wife onto this one. where they drink wine and shakes. It's something about wine and shakes, like milkshakes and they, they talk about these like true crime stories to kind of circle back to that, but it's just hysterical. these like, they're either both have their masters or phds. I mean, they're like brilliant, but they just, they drink wine and they talk about, you know, these true crime stories and they talked about the Winchester house on their debut episode.

Josh Mattison: 01:07:47 Oh, I love the Winchester house

New Speaker: 01:07:53 And they're sharing all of these cool facts and all this stuff and they're just hysterical and it's just these two friends that are just going off about these stories is they're getting lit on wine. So it's, it's, it's, it's hysterical. I, I wish I could remember the name of it, but I just played it for her one night when we were making dinner and she now just adores it because it's so funny. She loves Pod, Save America as well. Oh yeah. That's, that's another big one for her. Especially now. In what respects are you still the same person you were as a child?

Josh Mattison: 01:08:26 Oh Gosh. Uh, seems like, this seems like a great question for you. Uh, well, you know, and I can kind of see this echoed to my son a little bit, but I'm a pretty sensitive and empathetic I think are the two kind of traits that I carried over into adulthood as much as I didn't want to and I think I spent a lot of my twenties kind of pretending that I wasn't. But uh, because it's difficult, this world can be a little difficult for a more sensitive person and I'm kind of seeing my son and deal with a lot of that and it's bringing back a lot of the memories like, Oh Yup, I was that way too. Yep. I was that way too, you know, and like so yeah, I think, but I think those traits are really important in making good art, you know, and so I'm actually kind of leaning into it, that idea of being sensitive and being empathetic and what does that mean, you know?

New Speaker: 01:09:18 Yeah. So yeah, same here, same here. Very much so, right? Yeah. And it, it was hard. It was very hard as a kid and growing up in the south. And that proved to be a very difficult place to be, you know, sensitive male, creative guy, you know, even in my group of friends that I hung out with regularly or became, you know, long-term friends with it was still, I was still an outsider. So I definitely connect with that one for sure.

Josh Mattison: 01:09:49 Yeah, absolutely. I mean that's sort of, I mean, you know, a lot of. I think a lot of kids grow up that way, kind of wind up that way as adults and actually wind up as artists interestingly enough. I don't think that's that unusual. Yeah. Well, uh, is there anything else that you'd like to talk about or anything that we may have missed? I'm trying to think. There was one thing that, that kind of moving thought, but I can't remember it now. So now I just, I'm really glad you're doing this show. I think it's, I think it's great to talk to people who, I mean, you know, our shows are related, not necessarily in the way that they sound, but in the, in the ideas that we're trying to trying to get across to people is just celebrating other people's creative impulses. I'm just, I'm glad. I'm glad that there is a, I'm glad that they're, this spaces is growing in terms of that and I'm glad you're part of it

New Speaker: 01:10:36 Hear! Hear! Yeah. Thank you for that. And thank you for paving the way. You've been a great sounding board as I've been, you know, putting this together and trying to figure out what this was for me and how, you know, how that really aligned with, with me and what I want to do and for mine, you know, just as I'm trying to be supportive of years because I love what you're doing man. And I love how much it fills you up. I mean, it's just so exciting to hear you got out how much you love it. I love, I love capturing this on tape, you know?

Josh Mattison: 01:11:09 Yeah. Oh totally. I mean, it'd be interesting to hear like a year from now where I am, but I feel like it's only, I feel like it's kind of opened. This world is opening up for me a little bit, which is just so exciting. I mean eventually I think I'd actually like to start like teaching like Kinda the art of audio storytelling and some partner another, but that's somewhere down the road.

Gabe Ratliff: 01:11:27 Yeah, I mean, yeah, that sounds, from what I know of you, that sounds like a great, you know, I don't want to say just a goal, but that sounds like a great kind of path path, next evolution of where you're going because I think you

Josh Mattison: 01:11:42 Also have to make some fucking money. I hope you can cuss. I hope that your show has got a, some cussing on it. I realized I've been dropping f bombs and s bombs all over the place here.

Gabe Ratliff: 01:11:57 Yep. It's going to be as. I would just want it to be real so I don't, I don't want to censor. I'm anti-censorship a. yeah, don't worry about that. Lastly, there's gonna be a big fat E on this one for sure. My last one I was, I was the one dropping them, so, uh, yeah. All right. So where can people find you on the interwebs? Uh, where, you know, where can they find your show? When's the next one coming out? What do we got coming up for people?

Josh Mattison: 01:12:29 Uh, so the next one will be I think a little sooner because they've already actually surprisingly have all of the material gathered already. So I'm going to try and put that out. That would be what? September? What's Monday? Next Monday. So September 10th or 11th maybe? I think it's the um, so yeah, yeah. I want to have the next episode out next week and you can listen to Denver orbit at DenverOrbit.com or you can just put Denver Orbit into whatever podcast app you use. It'll, it'll come up. I think it's on almost all of them except Spotify still going through that process. A bit more of a tougher process to get on Spotify. But I'm in the middle of that and so, but everything. But Spotify should have it if you just put Denver Orbit in and if you want to submit to the show, if you're sort of inspired by all of this or frankly if you just want to chat about like, Hey, I want to talk to you and have a coffee and talk about like how to make good radio. I'm totally up for that as well. And you can just reach me at Denver Orbit at Gmail Dot Com for anything. Really? Yeah. Oh, so we're on Instagram and Facebook, but who cares? The Shit I put on instagram is fun but not really show show oriented. It's just goofy shit that I find on the Internet. So

Gabe Ratliff: 01:13:53 Man, is it worth following? Oh my gosh. I love

Josh Mattison: 01:13:56 Some pretty great stuff.

New Speaker: 01:13:59 Love checking out your feed or seeing you pop up in my feed on Instagram. Oh my gosh. The most random amazing stuff. I'll be like, where the hell did he find that? That is awesome.

Josh Mattison: 01:14:14 That's, that's fun. It's like not radio oriented but it's fun. So we're on there as well.

Gabe Ratliff: 01:14:20 I love it. Well Josh, thank you so much for being on the show.

Josh Mattison: 01:14:25 Thank you for having me. It's been awesome man.

Gabe Ratliff: 01:14:27 Yeah, I'm just such a big fan and you know, I love you man. We got, we got some history together and I love to be on this path together and just see where we both go. So thank you so much for what you do and putting these great stories out and know. Thank you again for being on the show.

Josh Mattison: 01:14:43 Thanks man. And thanks for doing this podcast too. I think this is just awesome and I think I'm excited to see what you come up with in a year too.

Gabe Ratliff: 01:14:53 Hey gang, thanks so much for listening. If this is your first time checking out the show, then thank you so much for being here. I hope you enjoyed it. Uh, The Vitalic Project podcast comes out biweekly and is available every other Thursday for your enjoyment. The show notes for this episode can be found at vitalicproject.com/004. And all the links from this episode will be in the show notes. If you haven't yet, please subscribe to the show and feel free to leave a rating or review on iTunes. If you'd like to be a guest or know someone that would be a great fit, please go to vitalicproject.com/guest. Feel free to share this or any other episode with your friends and family and thank you so much for listening. Until next time, keep being vitalitic!